VietRealm

Viet Heritage => History => Topic started by: 大越 on November 02, 2017, 08:30:22 AM

Title: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 02, 2017, 08:30:22 AM
Ever wondered why 23andme show most Viets having 50% Chinese and why MyHeritage.com straight up combines Viets and Chinese into one category? Well, wonder no more. We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese.

This recent research paper in peer-reviewed science journal Nature proposes that prior to southern expansion the population of northern Vietnam were genetically Southern Chinese, and absorption of southern populations that occurred 800 years ago changed the genetic makeup of Vietnamese to what they are today.

“main admixture event occurring between Chinese and a southern Asian ancestral composite...This admixture event occurred ~800 ya, again coinciding with the Nam tiến.”

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-12813-6 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-12813-6)

Edit:

That link seems to be down at the moment. Alternative link:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320189972_Phylogeographic_and_genome-wide_investigations_of_Vietnam_ethnic_groups_reveal_signatures_of_complex_historical_demographic_movements (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320189972_Phylogeographic_and_genome-wide_investigations_of_Vietnam_ethnic_groups_reveal_signatures_of_complex_historical_demographic_movements)
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 02, 2017, 08:43:04 AM
They did genome wide analysis in looking at Vietnamese admixture as well as timing of this admixture:

“ALDER was used to estimate the time of admixture, which was shown to be statistically significant under an ad hoc z test (Fig. 5E). The best estimates point to an admixture event occurring about 32 (21–44) generations ago or ~800 ya (assuming 25 years per generation).”
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 02, 2017, 08:47:35 AM
“The D-statistic, built as D(Y, KHV; CHS, OUTGROUP), indicates that the Chinese (represented by CHS) have an unquestionable contribution to KHV”

“The fact that the negative values are much higher in D(Y, KHV; CHS, OUTGROUP) than in D(Y, KHV; CHS, OUTGROUP) reveals that the Chinese component has a more clear presence in KHV. This result is in good agreement with ADMIXTURE.”

“the overall scenario is that present-day Vietnamese have a dual ethnic origin: a major component coming from South China, superimposed to a minor component originating from a Thai-Indonesian composite. The Nam tiến has probably been key for the configuration of the genome architecture of present-day Vietnamese.”
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: Strawberry&Rasberry on November 02, 2017, 07:59:59 PM
You are Zhongguo's fellow terracotta warrior.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: lalapaluza on November 02, 2017, 08:33:06 PM
most Vietnamese look southern phetypically southern, similar in look to some of the indigenous tribes. So I'd say were were mostly indigenous people.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: gaden on November 02, 2017, 10:15:29 PM
Data doesn't show that Vietnamese are Chinese.  Vietnamese are most related to the northern minorities, excluding the Hmong.


(https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-12813-6/MediaObjects/41598_2017_12813_Fig1_HTML.jpg)
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 02, 2017, 11:07:56 PM
Hehe, I expect denial.

Determination was based on genome wide analysis not just haplogroup.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: gaden on November 05, 2017, 10:04:16 PM
This is the dumbest study I've ever seen.  The study was done by Westerners without any knowledge about social or geopolitical history of VN.

This quote refers to the Southern Han admixture, which encompasses Vietnamese and all the northern Vietnamese minorities as well.
Quote
“main admixture event occurring between Chinese and a southern Asian ancestral composite...This admixture event occurred ~800 ya, again coinciding with the Nam tiến.”

Anthropologically speaking they don't differentiate between Chinese and Kinh, all of the ethnics in northern VN.  Based on the small amount of admixture of the people from the south (Malay component), they used a mathematical model to deduce the interval of time when the northern gene (Kinh) started to migrate south.  The migration is a pure Kinh migration from the Red River Delta, not Kinh from China.

The article also talks about stratification and gene diversity of Vietnam, which means that there is not much mixing between the ethnic groups due to geography and cultural differences.  That's probably means the Hoa people as well because admixture results show the differences between all ethic groups.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 05, 2017, 10:29:44 PM
The Southern Han reference they used was not Kinh or Northern Viet minorities, but rather CHS from 1000 Genomes, which consists of Han from Hunan and Fujian province.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: Xxx on November 06, 2017, 01:46:03 PM
I am dumb..low iq n all...but the premise of this topic is dumb as fukkk. I think  my iq dropped to single digit. Im not even retarded anymore but  more like a vegetable or rock. Fun my life  :(
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: gaden on November 06, 2017, 01:56:03 PM
If you are dumb the best way to increase your intelligence is by associating yourself with members who are smart, like East Asians.  That's what most Asians in forums do.

But the study uses the CHS reference for Han Chinese because there is no reference for northern Kinh Vietnamese.  The Vietnamese genome is too diverse to use.  The whole premise of the study is to decipher how and when Kinh Vietnamese spread from north to south.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: Qu Đơn on November 06, 2017, 02:44:55 PM


I truly believe commerce makes Asians smarter in a very selfish way.  Look at South Korea, China and Japan, these three countries year after year make the top 10 most polluted countries in the world with barely livable air quality in their major cities.  Asian intelligence is used for the most part to make money, regardless of the effects on people and the environment in the local community.  This Khmer guy taught himself Vietnamese to make more money serving Vietnamese tourists.  He basically used his intelligence to be integrated to a more advanced economy next door.  This is why I don´t believe Vietnamese have ever been Chinese.  It is like saying no we would rather transition to Vietnamese and become poorer thank you. 

https://youtu.be/TUx35k_VDaI
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: NT on November 06, 2017, 05:15:57 PM
There's nothing wrong with being Chinese. If you feel Chinese then that's all nice and dandy.

I've met a Chinese person that can speak Vietnamese and Cantonese fluently. She considers herself Chinese born in Vietnam--but when someone asked if Vietnamese and Chinese are the same, she said yes, but the language are different. She probably didn't know most of Viets words are Chinese borrowed. But anyways,  she has family in Vietnam, vacation in Vietnam, and I think she genuinely likes the country of her birth.

Point is, Chinese is still considered themselves Chinese, even hundred of years living in Vietnam. If Vietnamese were Chinese, they wouldn't call themselves Vietnamese. Because Chinese have strong identity beliefs, even their conquerers now considered themselves Chinese.  Chinese would never call themselves Vietnamese, this is silly.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: Qu Đơn on November 06, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
the original poster is a Hoa Chinese.  They want so hard to be "respected" like the rest of Southeast Asia when Vietnamese look at them as meh. That explains everything.

There's nothing wrong with being Chinese. If you feel Chinese then that's all nice and dandy.

I've met a Chinese person that can speak Vietnamese and Cantonese fluently. She considers herself Chinese born in Vietnam--but when someone asked if Vietnamese and Chinese are the same, she said yes, but the language are different. She probably didn't know most of Viets words are Chinese borrowed. But anyways,  she has family in Vietnam, vacation in Vietnam, and I think she genuinely likes the country of her birth.

Point is, Chinese is still considered themselves Chinese, even hundred of years living in Vietnam. If Vietnamese were Chinese, they wouldn't call themselves Vietnamese. Because Chinese have strong identity beliefs, even their conquerers now considered themselves Chinese.  Chinese would never call themselves Vietnamese, this is silly.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 06, 2017, 05:52:57 PM
It’s so obvious that people don’t see this:

Those who still call themselves Chinese in Vietnam are families who held steadfast and strong to their Chinese identities. Those without this characteristic have already assimilated, so you don’t see them, duh. You only hear from the non-assimilated folks. Dock 15 points from your IQ score for not getting this.

Look at Thailand, every Chinese call themselves Thai, have Thai names, only speak Thai, are culturally Thai, and identify as Thai. They are 100% fully assimilated.

Anyway, only those enlightened will pay attention to the genetic study, so you guys can run along and talk about peenis.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: NT on November 06, 2017, 06:15:41 PM
It’s so obvious that people don’t see this:

Those who still call themselves Chinese in Vietnam are families who held steadfast and strong to their Chinese identities. Those without this characteristic have already assimilated, so you don’t see them, duh. You only hear from the non-assimilated folks. Dock 15 points from your IQ score for not getting this.

Look at Thailand, every Chinese call themselves Thai, have Thai names, only speak Thai, are culturally Thai, and identify as Thai. They are 100% fully assimilated.

Anyway, only those enlightened will pay attention to the genetic study, so you guys can run along and talk about peenis.
I respectfully disagree, sir.

The Chinese-Vietnamese girl I talked to is strongly assimilated, she have Viet name, speak Vietnamese better than Chinese, and her only known families are currently living in Vietnam. Yet, she considered herself Chinese born in Vietnam even if she never set foot in China. By the way, there is nothing wrong with this, because I believe in individual freedom. But to say she is not assimilated is just not true.

Chinese in Thailand are still considered themselves Chinese-Thai. They can speak Chinese, and half of them can trace their ancestors back to Guadong China. They're assimilated and intermixed, but their Chinese identity is still there.  They know and understand that they're mixed--their identity is not Thai but a hybrid. The Chinese identity is so strong that a Thai King would remember that he is partially Chinese.

If they only considered themselves as thai, speak thai, and nothing else--we would not known of their existence.  These people, they call themselves " Thai Chinese," sir.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 06, 2017, 06:22:21 PM
I don’t think you understand Asia.

https://www.quora.com/Do-all-Thai-Chinese-identify-as-Thai (https://www.quora.com/Do-all-Thai-Chinese-identify-as-Thai)


“Thai-Chinese here
...
Most Thai-Chinese in Thailand would considered ourselves Thai though, most don't speak any form of Chinese, most have Thai name, and most would be indistinguishable from ordinary Thai in all count.”
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: NT on November 06, 2017, 06:30:08 PM
By default, all people born in Thailand are Thai, sir. Just as the Chinese in Vietnam, they're actually Vietnamese by nationality.

The point I am trying to make is that, they are aware of their hybrid heritage, and many still even have grandmother or father that speak Chinese in their home. They do not considered themselves as just Thai. They acknowledge their Chinese sides and can even traces back to its origin of migration.

Vietnamese Chinese can do the same. To say all Vietnamese somehow are actually Chinese and somehow we become a blank slate somewhere along the line...and that we can't remember out Chinese-ness...is ludicrous.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 06, 2017, 06:31:30 PM
You also said most Thai Chinese speak Chinese, which is wrong.

You speak to mostly Asian Americans who are pretty much all the same. I don’t think you understand Thai perspective.

Look at the quote from Thai Chinese person in my previous response. That’s what they say.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 06, 2017, 06:37:54 PM
Vietnamese can’t even remember anything later than 100 years let alone 900 years.

When someone wears a giao linh they don’t even recognize it’s Vietnamese. The only thing they know is ao dai. They look at the picture below and don’t even recognize it’s Vietnamese. How do you expect them to know what Dai Viet was like a millennia ago?


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Lord_Nguyen_Phuc_Thuan.jpg/640px-Lord_Nguyen_Phuc_Thuan.jpg)
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: NT on November 06, 2017, 06:52:44 PM
Even if I am wrong as you said, the fact that they don't speak Chinese because they are partially Chinese(1/4. 1/8),  yet they are still digging and finding out  about their ancestors and can even trace them back to a specific province of China. That tell me their Chinese identity is very strong. They identify as Thai...but their action say they're Thai Chinese.

Sir, I have nothing against your claims--and my like or dislikes for Chinese will not blind me or stop me from coming to an impartial or subjective conclusion.

What's preventing me from agreeing with your conclusion is simply because it doesn't make any god damn sense. You never see Qu talking about his great great x100 grandfather from China or which province he came from or which Chinese dialect  he spoke.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 06, 2017, 07:59:43 PM
That’s exactly it. Viet connection with China is 800 years old and long forgotten, but it is pervasive and that shows up in both our genes and our culture.

Viets have collective amnesia. As I’ve said we can’t even remember past 100 years let alone 800 years. The genetic paper was purely that, a look at when the DNA transition occurred. I am only revealing what the study authors are saying. Don’t shoot the messenger

Look at the title of this thread. It says we (Dai Viets) are no longer Chinese.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 06, 2017, 08:53:33 PM
And by the way, none of the Chinese dialects spoken today even existed 800 years ago. Our northern relatives were from all over and the result is a mix that has already been evenly blended a long time ago.

The Chinese dialect that Vietnamese is closest to is Annamese Middle Chinese.

More about it here:

https://chl-old.anu.edu.au/publications/csds/csds2010/03-1_Phan_2010.pdf (https://chl-old.anu.edu.au/publications/csds/csds2010/03-1_Phan_2010.pdf)



Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: NT on November 13, 2017, 07:50:49 PM
But then why stop there? It is good as "were homo erectus before we were Vietnamese. "  Or based on the "Out of Africa theory," I guess were were African before we were Vietnamese.


Point is, it doesn't change anything. Why waste time arguing about stuff you never experienced. There is no amnesia, those memories never existed for you and I. I was never a Chinese or an African.

Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 13, 2017, 09:55:23 PM
I can’t man, “Viet Nam” are Chinese-derived words. Our personal names are also Chinese-derived names. At least half of our vocabulary are Chinese-derived words. Tet and Trung Thu are Chinese-derived festivals. The ancestral hall in a Ha Nam village that my family have been maintaining and worshiping for a millennia are Chinese derived traditions. Our ao dai is Chinese-derived. My habit of using soy sauce for seasoning and chopsticks for eating is Chinese-derived. Thank god I also use fish sauce.

But even my DNA tests keep reminding me not to stray too far

(http://i67.tinypic.com/5zkvoo.jpg)
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: NT on November 13, 2017, 10:32:52 PM

what you're saying is true. You cannot talk about Vietnamese without ancient Chinese. There were Vietnamese Kings that had native and ancient Chinese linage.
But that's what make a Vietnamese person Vietnamese. It is a collective identity of the southern people or those that migrated and settled in the South, intermixing with local people in the Red-River Delta and call themselves Vietnamese.

But Vietnamese were not Chinese. That's on-sided, in relaity Vietnamese are a mix of peoples/tribes, and southward expansion also added more to this complexity.

You won't accept this, that's why people like you are always confused, hence constant bickering amongst yourself about phenotypes, genetic, and identity. Because you have ideals and try to make other see it your ways.
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: literallyChina on November 14, 2017, 03:56:12 AM
Southern Han or Northern Han?
Title: Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
Post by: 大越 on November 14, 2017, 06:15:00 AM
Southern Han or Northern Han?

From the paper:

“The D-statistic, built as D(Y, KHV; CHS, OUTGROUP), indicates that the Chinese (represented by CHS) have an unquestionable contribution to KHV”


CHS are Han samples from Hunan and Fujian province from 1000 Genomes project.