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Author Topic: Why didn't Vietnamese lose national identity after 1000 yrs of Chinese Ocupation  (Read 3079 times)

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Offline gaden

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Why did the Vietnamese adopt Chinese culture, learning and language, but never lose their national identity in spite of one millennia of Chinese occupation?
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-Vietnamese-adopt-Chinese-culture-learning-and-language-but-never-lose-their-national-identity-in-spite-of-one-millennia-of-Chinese-occupation

Several explanations for that include the following:

1. Chinese rule was rather loose.

Contrary to what the question states, Chinese rule over present day northern Vietnam lasted only around 1000 years (from 111 BC to 906 AD, with lengthy interruptions). Moreover, for a majority of these periods, the Chinese ruled only indirectly or loosely via local leadership.

Earlier Chinese rule (before 40 AD) had local chieftains retain much of their power and privileges. While that system were abolished by Ma Yuan's suppression of the Trưng Sisters' Rebellion, and after that the positions of governors were exclusively reserved for Chinese from the north, many lower officials and clerks who directly contacted with the population were native people or naturalised Chinese. Not until the Tang dynasty was Chinese rule intensively enforced - unfortunately for the efforts, the Tang empire had already begun to disintegrate by that time.


2. Geography distance & isolation led to less intensive immigration

Geographically speaking, the area of present day Northern Vietnam was during ten centuries the southernmost region of China, farthest to the south from the Central Plain, the cradle of Chinese civilisation, and communication was lacking. Until the late Tang dynasty, the sea was the main means of communication with the region.



This map shows the populated areas of the Eastern Han Dynasty, with Jiaozhi (Giao Chỉ) and Jiuzhen (Cửu Chân) at the bottom of the map, being separated from the rest of the empire by large expanses of mountainous areas inhabited by hostile tribes (which during the Tang Dynasty was organised into a Jimi system (Vietnamese: châu ki mi), literally "loose-rein commanderies". These mountainous areas were an obstacle for large scale migration and military supply, and those mountainous tribes (ancestors of modern Zhuang and Tay peoples) were not fully subjugated until the Ming dynasty. Most communication and travels to and from Jiaozhi were conducted by sea along the coast instead.

The difficulty in travelling by land was demonstrated by the fact that both Sui's reconquest of Jiaozhi (602) and Tang's campaign against Nanzhao's invasion of Jiaozhou (865) used the sea route. Land routes between China and Vietnam was developed and used only since the Song Dynasty, yet sea routes still proved more convenient for mass transportation and was invariably used by the Southern Han, the Song, the Yuan, and the Ming alike in their attempted conquests of Annam.

That relative isolation meant not only less influence from the central government but also less immigration from the Central Plains during turbulent times, especially in comparison with neighbouring Guangdong, which was reachable by more convenient land routes(See more: Lingqu Canal). Chinese immigration to Lingnan during the Qin and Han was for the most part limited in Nanhai around nowadays Pearl River Delta in Guangdong.

Another effect of that isolation is that China's central government never had a tight control over the region, and local governors tended to exercise a large amount of autonomy (refer to point (1) above).


3. High native population presence

In addition to a relatively lower scale of immigration from the north, the region also had a large native population prior to Chinese rule. The highly fertile Red River Delta brought about the development of extensive rice cultivation that could support a large population even before the introduction of iron tools from the north.

Historically, the population density of the Red River Delta was much higher than other regions in Southern China, even that of Guangdong. For example, a 2 AD census under the Han Dynasty showed Jiaozhi (Giao Chỉ) commandery alone with a population 8 (eight) times higher than that of adjacent Nanhai (Nam Hải).

Population comparison at 2 AD:

Commandery   Household  Population
Jiaozhi               92,440        746,237
Jiuzhen              35,743        166,013
Rinan                15,460          69,485
-------------------------------------------------
Nanhai               19,613         94,253

The total population of the three commanderies (Jiaozhi, Jiuzhen, and Rinan) was thus about one million at the beginning of the Common Era, exceptionally high for a small frontier region, as well as in comparison with the population of Nanhai commandery, where the majority of Chinese immigrants during the Qin and Han concentrated (these immigrants were included in the census). Especially, the population of the Jiaozhi commandery, centred in the densely populated Red River Delta, was comparable to the more populous commanderies in the Central Plains.

Higher native population and lesser and successive immigration (Point 2) meant that Chinese immigrants tended to be absorbed by the  natives rather than vice-versa.


4. Chinese influence was essential in the forging of Vietnamese identity

As Gwydion Madawc Williams has correctly stated, Vietnamese national identity was forged upon the deliberate fusion of Chinese influence and native elements. In fact, without Chinese influence, there would  be no modern Vietnamese national identity per se. It is therefore irrelevant to talk about "losing their national identity despite Chinese  occupation", as that identity never existed but for Chinese rule.

Moreover, it is a consensus among scholars regardless of nationalities that Chinese influence, or more exactly a fusion of Chinese and native elements, was the core factor that lead to the successful Vietnamese resistance against Chinese domination. In other words, without Chinese influences, the Vietnamese would have likely been either absorbed into China and disappear from history or reduced to a minority as many other scattered ethnic groups in Southern China nowadays.

That apparent paradox was manifested by the fact that Chinese influence over Vietnam grew even stronger after Vietnam became independent: Active adoption of Chinese administration, law, education, literature and culture was encouraged and pursued by successive Vietnamese dynasties, as it was crucial in defending the nation's independence. Adopting Chinese influence helped to strengthen Vietnamese identity against China's assimilation attempts.

SUMMARY

If there is to be only one decisive factor, it should be: Geography.




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Quora is like a more updated version of topix with numerous more self styled experts.  All the answers provided, especially quoting white scholars who claimed expertise in Vietnamese history without much reliable primary information to go with is dubious at best. 

Only future archeology will confirm the truth of what we Vietnamese already know that our sense of nationhood formed way before Chinese rule.  It was shaped millennia before Han arrival by fighting all the other nations that surrounded ancient Vietnamese principalities. Even the first Vietnamese proto states formed earlier than Han Chinese ones, and it was this stability in governance and administration that led to a large native population.  To this day the number of Chinese in Vietnam is rather small at less than 800,000 compared to 10 million in Thailand, 7 million in Malaysia, 3 million in Indonesia.  How was it possible for hordes of Chinese heading south to conveniently avoid settling in Vietnam? A country that was occupied by Chinese troops?  There must be a strong native culture that resented and prevented Chinese settlement   That is to say, while the Chinese ruled Vietnam, they were never comfortable settling there because when rebellions break out they would all be dead.

 Another way to explain this is that those Chinese who did settle in Vietnam simply became Vietnamese through assimilation.  How was this possible when becoming Vietnamese implies fighting Chinese invasions times and times again?  Usually the subjected peoples become more like the rulers and over time mix with them to be less native as in the case with Latin American countries.  The answer is that it was simply better to become ethnic Vietnamese because there was more security in Vietnam than going back to China.  The terms negotiated under Chinese occupation allowed enough autonomy because Vietnamese rulers can break them if they wish.  The organized economic system, military structure and administrative network were already in place to sustain civilian life.  Thus, this organization can also be used to drive out foreigners.  What happened then was the same today, native Vietnamese rulers became corrupt and selfish so collaborated with the Chinese at the expense of other Vietnamese.  And if history teaches us anything it is that rebellions will once again break out to rectify this situation. 



Offline UniFy(心臓盗人)

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Vietnamese are losing their identity. Kpop worshipping and changing their name to korean name are just two of the things that worries me.

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South Korea is a small nation, nestled between hostile neighbors, who historically exploited the Korean people anyways they can.  I actually believe, in the long term, diplomatic relationship with the Koreans will prove beneficial especially if South Korea remains culturally Korean.  There is a much greater chance of South Korea losing its own culture than Vietnam doing so.  Vietnam does not have any multiculturalism so to speak while in South Korea it is now a growing problem not to mention 30,000 American troops currently stationed there, many of them blacks and hispanics.  This number is being rotated, so just imagine the absolute numbers of American GIs have their fun with the women in South Korea, resulting in numerous fatherless children in South Korea.  Do you ever wonder why in your country, Norway, that the only Koreans you will ever meet are adoptees?  South Korea is famous for baby exports before they learned from the Japanese how to make electronics smaller and cheaper.

Offline Rude Boy

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Because there was no such thing as Vietnamese national identity during Chinese-ruled Northern Vietnam lol. Vietnamese identity only started to emerge during the late Tang dynasty when Northern Vietnam became a much more cultivated land and rulers of Northern Vietnam were shown to have local backgrounds by historical records.

Saying the people who inhabited the lowlands of Red River Delta during Han, early Tang dynasty were Vietnamese is like saying the troops of the Night Watch were the banner-men of house Stark in the war of 5 kings. You can't simply compare a small group of people who only does their duty to the "realm" (the troops of the Night Watch) with a significantly bigger group of people who has developed their own political identity (house Stark banner-men). Both groups of people aren't ideologically the same group of people anymore even when they are genetically the same people.

Offline CognacXO

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In a way Vietnamese did lose identity..
Looking completely Asian afterward and eating pho with chopsticks!

Ancient bronze teapot..




Offline Rude Boy

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To learn history is to know how we as a group of people ideologically evolve.
If you asked the inhabitants of Northern Vietnam in the 5th century about their ethnic identity, they would think of themselves as peasants from Nanyue who only do their daily task in the isolated Jiaozhi region. If you came back to the 10th century, you would see the rise of local rulers with more people in Northern Vietnam identifying themselves to independent from the people in Nanyue. And when you arrived in the 15th century, you would see people in North Vietnam started to oppose the Ming rule that had been established after the fall of Ho dynasty. And then in 20th century, you would witness Vietnamese people fighting against French soldiers for a nation written as Vietnam.

So when i say about "Chinese-ruled" Northern Vietnam in my previous post, it doesn't equate to modern day Han Chinese identity. The term "Chinese-ruled" Northern Vietnam here means "Han/Tang-ruled" Northern Vietnam.

Offline AnNamMit

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In a way Vietnamese did lose identity..
Looking completely Asian afterward

The Vietnamese isnt just about the natives of northern Vietnam. Its the fusion of different ethnicities; immigrants and natives. So, saying Vietnamese lost their identity only correct apply to the natives and the natives is one part of the Vietnamese, they don’t represent whole.

Offline Gāokējì

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To learn history is to know how we as a group of people ideologically evolve.
If you asked the inhabitants of Northern Vietnam in the 5th century about their ethnic identity, they would think of themselves as peasants from Nanyue who only do their daily task in the isolated Jiaozhi region. If you came back to the 10th century, you would see the rise of local rulers with more people in Northern Vietnam identifying themselves to independent from the people in Nanyue. And when you arrived in the 15th century, you would see people in North Vietnam started to oppose the Ming rule that had been established after the fall of Ho dynasty. And then in 20th century, you would witness Vietnamese people fighting against French soldiers for a nation written as Vietnam.

So when i say about "Chinese-ruled" Northern Vietnam in my previous post, it doesn't equate to modern day Han Chinese identity. The term "Chinese-ruled" Northern Vietnam here means "Han/Wu/Tang-ruled" Northern Vietnam.

Yea so what you are basically saying is that there were nobles who ruled and peasants who were under such rule and that there is no such thing as identity over long term, but only very fluid identity because even Northern Vietnam was ancient Chinese at one point.

Therefore ancient Northern Vietnam is the last bright remaining vestige of starlight that shines upon a Vietnam that is growing ever darker and darker, evident by the growing influence of its communist party bent on succumbing to the Ming China.

Offline Rude Boy

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Therefore ancient Northern Vietnam is the last bright remaining vestige of starlight that shines upon a Vietnam that is growing ever darker and darker, evident by the growing influence of its communist party bent on succumbing to the Ming China.
ancient Northern Vietnam doesn't exist anymore, only its remnants. Ming China was toasted a long time ago, it doesn't make sense to equate modern China to Ming China. "Fluid" identity is not really what i would describe but identity shaped by other group of migrants from Nanyue areas throughout the course of Vietnam history.

Offline Gāokējì

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ancient Northern Vietnam doesn't exist anymore, only its remnants. Ming China was toasted a long time ago, it doesn't make sense to equate modern China to Ming China. "Fluid" identity is not really what i would describe but identity shaped by other group of migrants from Nanyue areas throughout the course of Vietnam history.

You do realize that China doesn't view itself historically through the lens of any one dynasty?  Ming dynasty is only one of its historical dynasties.  The whole idea that China was toast because a dynasty fell is kind of superficial considering on the whole its people view national identity from a perspective of unification.  It's likened to the grand unified theory of science. Sure there will always be concepts that get tossed out the window but those that remain will certainly rise along with those others which can get super simplified into one simplistic theory.

Offline gaden

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ancient Northern Vietnam doesn't exist anymore, only its remnants. Ming China was toasted a long time ago, it doesn't make sense to equate modern China to Ming China. "Fluid" identity is not really what i would describe but identity shaped by other group of migrants from Nanyue areas throughout the course of Vietnam history.


Are you saying that Vietnamese today are different 100-200 years ago because of immigration?  Can you show some immigration numbers and interracial marriage certificates and how much shift in DNA it caused?  If my grandfather is not the same race that I am today I'm not going to worship him anymore.

So, how much immigration does it take to make Vietnamese not Vietnamese anymore?  1 in 100?  1 in 10?  1 in 2?

Offline Rude Boy

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Are you saying that Vietnamese today are different 100-200 years ago because of immigration?  Can you show some immigration numbers and interracial marriage certificates and how much shift in DNA it caused?  If my grandfather is not the same race that I am today I'm not going to worship him anymore.

So, how much immigration does it take to make Vietnamese not Vietnamese anymore?  1 in 100?  1 in 10?  1 in 2?
Nanyue people were already close / related to Vietnamese so they couldn't change the genetics core of Vietnamese population.

Offline Rude Boy

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The whole idea that China was toast because a dynasty fell is kind of superficial considering on the whole its people view national identity from a perspective of unification.  It's likened to the grand unified theory of science. Sure there will always be concepts that get tossed out the window but those that remain will certainly rise along with those others which can get super simplified into one simplistic theory.
Unification by betraying the Ming and pledging allegiance to the foreign Manchus and serving them for almost 3 centuries. Tell me what remain from the Ming dynasty after the Manchu rule? Anything that rises after the overthrown of Manchu can not be likened with the legacy of the already long dead Ming dynasty - the dynasty that got overthrown by the Manchus in the first place.

Offline CognacXO

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Vietnamese history has to be Kinh's history b/c it's the most dominant ethnic group!

Quote
The Vietnamese people or the Kinh people, are an ethnic group originating from present-day northern Vietnam. They are the majority ethnic group of Vietnam, comprising 86% of the population.

Khmer for Cambodian.

Han for Chinese.

Gaul for French.

For American history it's Anglo Saxon's..

1492

The Mayflower..

Get the point?

Is this cup half full or half empty?



---------------------

Bách Việt..



In ancient times, the Han Chinese referred to those living south of the Yangtze (Trường Giang river) collectively as Bách Việt, which means the one-hundred Việt tribes.

In the Sách Hán Thư (漢書), an ancient Han documentation, it is written: 

Within five miles from Giao Chỉ to Cối Kê (within the region south of the Yangtze river), the people of Bách Việt can be found everywhere, each group with its own individual regional customs. 

According to ancient Han Chinese historian La Hương Lâm (羅香林) the Bách Việt people have the same ancestral origins with the House of Hạ (the royal lineage of the kings of Hạ.)

Furthermore, Neolithic archaeology excavated from Quảng Tây (Quanxi) and north Vietnam, with emphasis on the aggregate ancient tombs found within these areas show that the Bách Việt people have their origins in the south, with close association with the Hòa Bình and Bắc Sơn civilization from Vietnam.

This explains who the Bách Việt are, but what does the word Bách Việt mean?  Well, here’s a surprise for you.  Regional dialect linguists have ascertain that the phonetic sound of the word 越 (Việt, Yue, Yueh) may be associated with the hemp plant since the region south of the Yangtze river is where it was found to be mass cultivated.



Now that may seem the ultimate in coolness, but there is more relevant meaning of Bách Việt.  The word Việt (越) is also associated with the word việt (鉞 ) which means a giant axe, an ancient weapon of giants in the far past, and also the symbol of the power of the royal emperor.

Many giant axes have been found in the region of Hàng Châu (Hángzhōu 杭州 ) with plenty of solid evidence that those axes were invented in the southern regions.  In fact, the first historical mention of the people of Bách Việt from the ancient Han writings describe a people who wielded an unusual weapon that they called a Việt.

This Việt weapon was a diamond-polished stone axe–unheard of six-thousand years ago, and something that the Han Chinese did not have.  It was the sole invention of the people living south of the Yangtze.  Although modern archaeologists label them as Chinese because they were found within the borders of modern-day China, they are actually of Vietnamese origin. 

The group of the one-hundred-tribes of Bách Việt consisted of  the Câu Ngô aka Wu (句吳), Ư Việt (於越), Dương Việt (揚越), Mân Việt (閩越), Nam Việt (南越), Đông Việt (東越), Sơn Việt (山越), Lạc Việt (雒越) and Âu Việt (甌越, 西甌). 

All these names are still in use today, in various phonetic forms.  These kingdom states were documented as being part of the empire of Emperor Hùng, collectively called Văn Lang (aka Lĩnh Nam).

As you can see in the image above, half of Giang Nam was part of the lands belonging to the kingdom state of U Việt, one of the loosely held kingdom states of Bách Việt.



The images on the calendar are fairly clean and simple.  There is much fascinating wisdom and knowledge buried within the pictures and symbols, but on the surface, it is a basic lunar calendar.

There are 354 days, divided into twelve months with six months having 29 days and six months having 30 days.  Within each five year periods, there are two years within that five year epoch that would have an extra month.  After the 18th year, and on the 19th year, the calendar reverts back to having 12 months.

If we look at the calendar face, it shows up as various animals and people.

Counting from the perimeter towards the center, the outermost ring of the calendar shows 18 birds with long beaks.  Each bird is a single year.

The next ring, going from outside towards the center, shows six chickens, ten deer, eight chickens, and ten deer.  There is a simple reason for these animals.  Chickens eat only during the day when there is no moon.  Deer eat only at night when there is a full moon.  Any month that starts with a chicken will have no moon at the start of the month.  There are six nights at the beginning of the month, from 1 to 6 when there is no moon.  There is also eight nights at the end of the month between 22 and 30 with no moon.  During these times, there should be no nightly hunting activities.  Any other times, when the moon shines bright at night, hunting can be organized.

The third ring shows six well-dressed royal members on each side of the circle, representing each month of the year.  There is a shorter royal member on one side, denoting the leap month to which an extra day must be added.

In the center, the rays of the sun or sunburst symbolizes day and night.  There are 14 rays (or nights) which land in between two days (those round sacs with the dots in the center).  It also denotes the six dragons of heaven.



This is a closeup of one of the frogs that were fused to the top of the Chợ Bờ drum. This type of drum was developed later than previous bronze drums, roughly between the 4th century B.C. and 1stcentury A.D.

Since frogs emerge during rain, and rain usually leads to good harvests, this drum was most probably used to predict times of planting as well as to request opportunistic rainfall. When the drums are beaten during festivals and the various holidays, the sound is said to resemble the rumbling sounds of thunder.

There are several types of drums.  They are differentiated by the designs on the drum face as well as by size.  They are:  Ngọc Lũ Drum, Hoàng Hạ Drum, Cổ Loa Drum, Chợ Bờ Drum, Sông Đà Drum, and Quảng Xương Drum.  These drums are part of a panoply of Trống đồng Đông Sơn (Dong Son drums) that date back to the Hùng Vương kings circa 2800 BC.



The Ngọc Lũ Drum, even dirt-logged and oxidized as it had been, was a thing of obvious beauty and value, and the men who rediscovered it knew that their ancestors had hidden it underground to protect it from being systematically destroyed.  The Great Bronze Melting during the occupation of Ma is very well-documented.  The men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage, kept safe for them, under the ground where it could be hidden from plunderers and the ravages of time. The Ngọc Lũ Drum is now on display at the Museum of Vietnamese History in Hà Noi.




The Hoàng Hạ Drum is slightly different from the Ngọc Lũ Drum in that there are 16 points to the center star instead of 14 points.  There are also slightly different patterns, designs, and animals on the drum face, but its purpose and design came from the same manufacturing process of the Ðông Son community of the ancient Vietnamese.



The Cổ Loa Drum is an example of what a Ðông Son drum looks like when it has not been protected underneath the ground.  After years of exposure to the elements and the ravages, it has suffered a fair amount of damage.  Yet, the images on the drum top is still visible and unique enough for it to be classified as a different style of Ðông Son drum.





The Sông Ðà Drum is another 14 point star drum.  It is slightly different from the other drums, mainly of its depictions of the various birds and animals on its face.





Chợ Bờ Drum is Quite unlike the other drums, this type of drum comprises of only two parts (instead of three) and also has frogs perching on the rim of the drum head.  There can be four to six frogs, and the images can vary from drum to drum.

Văn Khoa Đẩu  文蝌蚪, literally translated as ‘tadpole script’.  Here are some examples:





This writing was everywhere.  It was found on various Ðông Son artifacts including the famous drums, on cave walls, on over 200 Sapa boulders (which by the way, has traces of I Ching divinations similar to that found on oracle bones!), and of course on paper.  At the height of Dong Son civilization, there were 74,988 books written in Văn Khoa Đẩu from the library of Princess Phùng Vinh Hoa who lived during the times of the two Trung sisters.  We know about these books because many of them were referred to by title from many other sources. Since the script is a phonetic script, once we understand how the sounds are being recorded, we can literally read the script out loud and from the sound of the script, we can pick out the meaning of the words.  This was how I was able to read complex literature at such a young age.  I didn’t need to learn individual words, I only needed to learn the sounds that the groupings of letters made.



This script is being resurrected today by professor Lê Trọng Khánh, leader in the field of ancient Vietnamese writings. He was able to crack the codes of the language after intense study of the Sapa rocks of which only one boulder had anything that resembled words.



There were originally only 30 letters that could be deciphered, many of which were difficult to read due to the weathering of the rocks.  The letters to that rock in Sapa had these words written on them.  Công lao của tổ tiên đã xây dựng đất nước. Muôn đời sau con cháu phải bảo vệ lấy non sông của mình ~ Unknown Viet Ancestor  (translation:  Our ancestors have labored to build this land.  Future generations (you) must protect these lands of ours.)














https://taobabe.wordpress.com/ancient-lac-viet-writing-in-guangxi/


The sword of Goujian was made for the personal use of the King of Yue

Between 510 B.C. and 334 B.C., when the province of Yue existed, almost a dozen of kings held the throne. After further investigation, historians came to agree that the blade belonged to King Goujian, who reigned from 496 to 465 B.C., which is how the sword picked its name.



When the ancient Chinese Gouijan sword was discovered in a tomb in 1965, lurking side by side with a skeleton, it appeared to have somehow defied time, remaining without a speck of rust on its surface and the blade seemingly as sharp as the day it was forged. Archaeologists have estimated that its age is roughly 2,500 years. The ancient sword was found in 1965 during an archaeological survey in the Chinese province of Hubei in one of roughly 50 tombs that were unearthed.



It is a peculiar sword. Principally made of bronze, the metal also contains other elements that reinforce its structure and strength, such as copper, iron, lead, and sulfur, while the razor-sharp edges were made from tin. Untarnished despite spending over 2 millennia in a damp box,  it is the higher concentration of sulfur and copper that have given the sword resilience against rusting, scientists have discovered.

It was one of the earliest discovered examples of a Jian sword. Typically double-edged straight weapons, these swords go a long way back in Chinese history and their importance in China resonates through the country’s mythology and folklore. The Sword of Goujian measures 22.9 inches in length and was cast for a king.

The handle is inlaid with turquoise and the grip bound with silk. Both sides of the blade bear black rhombic etchings as well as an inscription displaying eight characters in ancient Chinese. Hard to understand, it took experts some time to decode their meaning, which was eventually deciphered as saying that the sword was made for the personal use of the King of Yue.

This king reigned during a turbulent era in ancient China, but it was also a period when perfecting weapons all across the country was on the rise, hence the deadly and unbreakable products such as his personal sword. The region suffered a number of attacks from neighboring kingdoms in the early years of King Goujian’s rule, but he cemented his victories and is recorded as being a notable and humble ruler.

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2017/11/22/ancient-chinese-sword-goujian-retrieved-tomb-perfectly-sharp-even-2500-years/


Costumes of ancient Mongolian soldiers are on display at Taylor’s museum.

A British man who has made Viet Nam his home has an amazing collection of old army guns and models of soldiers. They are all inside a museum he has made in an old French building, in Vũng Tàu City. Robert Taylor has been collecting these things for a long time and has always loved history.Visitors from overseas say the museum is as good as other top museums in the world.

http://vietnamnews.vn/english-through-the-news/300198/military-museum-is-world-class.html#WLEuKCWS5DAFvdUA.99

Steel gains prominence from the Zhou dynasty onward..


A 2300 Years Old Sword of Zhou Dynasty.

The Zhou came into power after establishing their dominance, and brought China into a period of advanced technology that included using more iron to create better and stronger weapons. These years were the beginning of the Iron Age in China, which officially began around 600 BC.

The Zhou Dynasty was able to hold absolute power until 776 BC when the Warring States Period began in China. As the name of the period describes, this period was exceptionally bloody as the Zhou struggled to hold on to power.

Iron working became a highly coveted skill during these centuries, and as weaponry advanced so did the Chinese's knowledge of smelting iron. The centuries-long period of war (776 through 221 BC), saw feudal lords seek to oust the Zhou through advanced weaponry and warfare. The lord who had the best weapons had the best chance at ruling.

https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-iron-age-in-china.html



Chinese steel swords make their appearance from the 5th century BC Warring States period, although earlier iron swords are also known from the Zhou dynasty. The Chinese Dao (刀 pinyin dāo) is single-edged, sometimes translated as sabre or broadsword, and the Jian (劍 pinyin jiàn) double edged.



Steel is harder and more durable. In an extended fight between someone with a steel weapon and someone with a bronze weapon, especially when armor is involved, the steel weapon will win. Bronze swords are softer and less durable, than a comparable iron or steel sword.

In hindsight, it was a contest b/w metals..Qu needs to travel back in time to inform Bách Việt to step up their game ASAP!

Offline Rude Boy

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Why Northern Vietnam wasn't independent from Han/Tang empire was because Northern Vietnam at that time didn't have enough people who believe in establishing their own kingdom. Nationhood thrives only when more and more people are aware of their capability to establish their own kingdom / empire.

From the beginning of history, there were just a few groups of people who first thought of the idea of establishing their own empires and their empires grew big quickly (Qin & Han empire) but later on that idea of establishing one's empire got spread to many other groups of people living in the big empire and so that big fat empire got eventually broken into smaller kingdoms. Northern Vietnam didn't break off from China but from the Tang / Southern Han / Song empire. And it succeeded in breaking off from a bigger empire because it had the capability.

Also there was no such thing as "Chinese" identity in Tang empire like modern day Han Chinese identity.

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Vietnamese history has to be Kinh's history b/c it's the most dominant ethnic group!
Nationhood did exist in Northern Vietnam before Han empire but it was not Vietnamese nationhood, it was Nanyue nationhood imposed by a Qin general.
Kinh is not an ethnic identity that has existed for more than 2000 years, it only emerged somewhere between the late 9th century to the 11th century. Before that the inhabitants of Northern Vietnam were called as Jiaozhi/Jiaozhou/Aizhou people or Annan people. Even modern day Tai speakers still call Vietnamese "Keo", which sounds similar to Jiao.

Offline Gāokējì

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Unification by betraying the Ming and pledging allegiance to the foreign Manchus and serving them for almost 3 centuries. Tell me what remain from the Ming dynasty after the Manchu rule? Anything that rises after the overthrown of Manchu can not be likened with the legacy of the already long dead Ming dynasty - the dynasty that got overthrown by the Manchus in the first place.

And then Manchus got overthrown only to lose their language.  What you say only makes sense if the Manchu dynasty was in power and progressed China to the point where it is at today.

But obviously Chinese don't think their identity stems from Manchu.  They think the representative identity already existed during the founding of the Han dynasty.

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The Qin took Shang and Zhou dynasty's bronze techniques to a new level.  They fashioned bronze halberds that were chemically altered in composition at the edge of the blade to make them harder allowing the center to remain softer and more flexible.

They even defeated all the other warring states with their bronze weapons.

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But obviously Chinese don't think their identity stems from Manchu.  They think the representative identity already existed during the founding of the Han dynasty.
There was no such thing as "Chinese" identity in the Tang empire like modern day Han Chinese so what they think is conflicting with their own historical records. There was only Huaxia vs Barbarians. Huaxia civilization started from Northwest of China.

Han, Tang are names of dynasty that only Chinese in/from Northern China used to identify themselves with. Han, Tang empires didn't establish modern day Han Chinese that include Southern China.

 
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