collapse

Author Topic: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese  (Read 3501 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Karma: +9/-14
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2017, 06:52:44 PM »
Even if I am wrong as you said, the fact that they don't speak Chinese because they are partially Chinese(1/4. 1/8),  yet they are still digging and finding out  about their ancestors and can even trace them back to a specific province of China. That tell me their Chinese identity is very strong. They identify as Thai...but their action say they're Thai Chinese.

Sir, I have nothing against your claims--and my like or dislikes for Chinese will not blind me or stop me from coming to an impartial or subjective conclusion.

What's preventing me from agreeing with your conclusion is simply because it doesn't make any god damn sense. You never see Qu talking about his great great x100 grandfather from China or which province he came from or which Chinese dialect  he spoke.

Offline RedWine

  • Vietnamese
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3308
  • Karma: +23/-47
  • Gender: Male
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2017, 07:59:43 PM »
That’s exactly it. Viet connection with China is 800 years old and long forgotten, but it is pervasive and that shows up in both our genes and our culture.

Viets have collective amnesia. As I’ve said we can’t even remember past 100 years let alone 800 years. The genetic paper was purely that, a look at when the DNA transition occurred. I am only revealing what the study authors are saying. Don’t shoot the messenger

Look at the title of this thread. It says we (Dai Viets) are no longer Chinese.
I'm a fobulous fob


Offline RedWine

  • Vietnamese
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3308
  • Karma: +23/-47
  • Gender: Male
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2017, 08:53:33 PM »
And by the way, none of the Chinese dialects spoken today even existed 800 years ago. Our northern relatives were from all over and the result is a mix that has already been evenly blended a long time ago.

The Chinese dialect that Vietnamese is closest to is Annamese Middle Chinese.

More about it here:

https://chl-old.anu.edu.au/publications/csds/csds2010/03-1_Phan_2010.pdf



I'm a fobulous fob


Offline NT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Karma: +9/-14
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2017, 07:50:49 PM »
But then why stop there? It is good as "were homo erectus before we were Vietnamese. "  Or based on the "Out of Africa theory," I guess were were African before we were Vietnamese.


Point is, it doesn't change anything. Why waste time arguing about stuff you never experienced. There is no amnesia, those memories never existed for you and I. I was never a Chinese or an African.


Offline RedWine

  • Vietnamese
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3308
  • Karma: +23/-47
  • Gender: Male
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2017, 09:55:23 PM »
I can’t man, “Viet Nam” are Chinese-derived words. Our personal names are also Chinese-derived names. At least half of our vocabulary are Chinese-derived words. Tet and Trung Thu are Chinese-derived festivals. The ancestral hall in a Ha Nam village that my family have been maintaining and worshiping for a millennia are Chinese derived traditions. Our ao dai is Chinese-derived. My habit of using soy sauce for seasoning and chopsticks for eating is Chinese-derived. Thank god I also use fish sauce.

But even my DNA tests keep reminding me not to stray too far

I'm a fobulous fob


Offline NT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Karma: +9/-14
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2017, 10:32:52 PM »

what you're saying is true. You cannot talk about Vietnamese without ancient Chinese. There were Vietnamese Kings that had native and ancient Chinese linage.
But that's what make a Vietnamese person Vietnamese. It is a collective identity of the southern people or those that migrated and settled in the South, intermixing with local people in the Red-River Delta and call themselves Vietnamese.

But Vietnamese were not Chinese. That's on-sided, in relaity Vietnamese are a mix of peoples/tribes, and southward expansion also added more to this complexity.

You won't accept this, that's why people like you are always confused, hence constant bickering amongst yourself about phenotypes, genetic, and identity. Because you have ideals and try to make other see it your ways.

Offline literallyChina

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2690
  • Karma: +12/-52
  • Gender: Male
  • Bá-Khiêm
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2017, 03:56:12 AM »
Southern Han or Northern Han?
[img width=440 height=120]http://orig05.deviantart.net/7f58/f/2011/296/d/0/ta_ge_by_taiyangg

Offline RedWine

  • Vietnamese
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3308
  • Karma: +23/-47
  • Gender: Male
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2017, 06:15:00 AM »
Southern Han or Northern Han?

From the paper:

“The D-statistic, built as D(Y, KHV; CHS, OUTGROUP), indicates that the Chinese (represented by CHS) have an unquestionable contribution to KHV”


CHS are Han samples from Hunan and Fujian province from 1000 Genomes project.

I'm a fobulous fob


Offline 222

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
  • Karma: +4/-0
  • ♪ J'ai Perdu Le Do De Ma Clarinette ♫ (French)
    • Google Viet Nam: Tiếng Việt / English / Français / 中文(繁體)
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2018, 06:28:33 AM »
I think you can't 'move on' with the "Nam Viet" 204BCE in present day GuangXi Zhuang Autonomous Region.

But the Zhuang (Thai: จ้วง) are NOW Chinese.

The Zhuang (Thai: จ้วง) are the largest non-Han group in South China.

Would you Vietnamese help the Zhuang (Thai: จ้วง) to reclaim their lands back from China? -
南越國
NamViệt Quốc

(Nam Việt Kingdom / State) 204 BCE


Offline gaden

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11741
  • Karma: +89/-10
  • Gender: Male
  • The Grand Lord of Mopeds
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2018, 10:08:44 PM »
I think you can't 'move on' with the "Nam Viet" 204BCE in present day GuangXi Zhuang Autonomous Region.

But the Zhuang (Thai: จ้วง) are NOW Chinese.

The Zhuang (Thai: จ้วง) are the largest non-Han group in South China.

Would you Vietnamese help the Zhuang (Thai: จ้วง) to reclaim their lands back from China? -


Vietnamese are small headed so they are not able to look much further ahead.  They would rather harass them instead of helping them revolt from China.

Back in the 11th century when the Nùng guy Nong Zhigao (Nùng Trí Cao) revolted against the Song to form their own kingdom no doubt having inspiration from Le Loi a century earlier.  The Vietnamese would rather oppressed them than help them gain land.  If the Vietnamese would join them,  Vietnam would probable encompass Southern China by now.

Offline Rude Boy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Cờ lờ mờ vờ, cờ lờ vờ
    • Austroasiatic Phenotypes
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2019, 12:01:30 PM »
Its actually the opposite. The natives of South China became Chinese while the native Vietnamese assimilated everything Chinese.

Vietnam

  • Guest
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2019, 12:26:11 PM »
Its actually the opposite. The natives of South China became Chinese while the native Vietnamese assimilated everything Chinese.

Same difference.

Offline Rude Boy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Cờ lờ mờ vờ, cờ lờ vờ
    • Austroasiatic Phenotypes
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2019, 10:38:10 AM »
Actually i look way more native Vietnamese than most forum members here. Most of Vietnamese members can probably trace half of their ancestral linage back to Lingnan areas.

Offline gaden

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11741
  • Karma: +89/-10
  • Gender: Male
  • The Grand Lord of Mopeds
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2019, 12:10:22 PM »
I think we are Indian before we are Chinese.

Offline Rude Boy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Cờ lờ mờ vờ, cờ lờ vờ
    • Austroasiatic Phenotypes
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2019, 02:11:10 PM »
I think we are Indian before we are Chinese.

No we were Africans, not Indians.

Offline Rude Boy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Cờ lờ mờ vờ, cờ lờ vờ
    • Austroasiatic Phenotypes
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2019, 06:13:55 PM »
Same difference.

Then why do Vietnamese have Sundadont teeth while Southern Chinese have Sinodont teeth?

Offline Rude Boy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Cờ lờ mờ vờ, cờ lờ vờ
    • Austroasiatic Phenotypes
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2019, 05:15:51 AM »
People seems to have this misconception that Chinese identity is something that has existed since the Han dynasty but historical records show that people from Lingnan region were seen as "barbarians" during Tang dynasty. The genetic research basically shows that the majority of modern day Vietnamese have close relationship with modern day ethnic minorities in South China. And Vietnamese isn't solely Dai but Dai, Muong, Miao, Khmer Krom etc... are ethnics that constitute modern day Vietnamese.

Offline Selurong

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1929
  • Karma: +11/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2019, 05:29:50 AM »
People seems to have this misconception that Chinese identity is something that has existed since the Han dynasty but historical records show that people from Lingnan region were seen as "barbarians" during Tang dynasty. The genetic research basically shows that modern day Vietnamese have close relationship with modern day ethnic minorities in South China. And Vietnamese isn't solely Dai but Dai, Muong, Miao, Khmer Krom etc... are ethnics that constitute modern day Vietnamese.
I see. So Vietnamese are really more Southern Shifted than Sinitic.

Sent from my CHM-U01 using Tapatalk

The Romance Metropolis of the Far East
"The City of Manila"


Offline Rude Boy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Cờ lờ mờ vờ, cờ lờ vờ
    • Austroasiatic Phenotypes
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2019, 05:56:34 AM »
I see. So Vietnamese are really more Southern Shifted than Sinitic.
Well it depends on geographic location I'd say. Northern Vietnamese are closer to northern Vietnam ethnic minorities like Tay than to Vietnamese in other regions. Central Vietnamese have less Tai speakers genetic influence but also more sudsinid (Miao-like) admixture so the northerness of Central Vietnamese is debatable. South Vietnamese have the greatest genetic diversity ranging from Khmer Krom to Miao (vietnamized Cantonese). So what makes modern day Cantonese more northern (not counting those living in metropolitans) is the Miao-like admixture and modern day Vietnamese more southern is the Vietic & Khmer Krom admixture.

Offline 222

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
  • Karma: +4/-0
  • ♪ J'ai Perdu Le Do De Ma Clarinette ♫ (French)
    • Google Viet Nam: Tiếng Việt / English / Français / 中文(繁體)
Re: We were Chinese before we became Vietnamese
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2019, 09:50:46 AM »
Well it depends on geographic location I'd say. Northern Vietnamese are closer to northern Vietnam ethnic minorities like Tay than to Vietnamese in other regions. Central Vietnamese have less Tai speakers genetic influence but also more sudsinid (Miao-like) admixture so the northerness of Central Vietnamese is debatable. South Vietnamese have the greatest genetic diversity ranging from Khmer to Miao (vietnamized Cantonese). So what makes modern day Cantonese more northern (not counting those living in metropolitans) is the Miao-like admixture and modern day Vietnamese more southern is the Vietic & Khmer admixture.

Why is Viet Nam "ended off" with in largest Austro-Asiatic speaking nation (approximately more than 92 million speakers including overseas Australia, France, Czech, USA and Canada)

Is it remain a mystery?

Why is your official language. "Tieng VietNam" falls with in Muong language family in the Austro-Asiatic family?

In genetic studies, yes, the "Vietnamese" people have diversity in structure and physical look.

Once I notice that many of them show that "Vietnamese" are shifted into Daic speakers in common.
But language is closer to Austro-Asiatic, particularly Muong (not Bahnar, Katuic, nor Khmer Krom).

The more interesting is that I found that "Old Vietnamese" resemblance much more like Tieng Muong than modern Tieng Viet.

The most noticable thing for me is that the words with 'l'-ending turn into 'i', such as:

'2' in Old Vietnamese is '*hal', close to modern Muong '2' 'hal' (modern Vietnamese: hai).
'10' in Old Vietnamese is '*mïel', close to modern Muong '10' 'muol' (modern Vietnamese: mu'ò'i)

Why the 'l' ending sound words in old Vietnamese change overtime into 'i' ending sound?
南越國
NamViệt Quốc

(Nam Việt Kingdom / State) 204 BCE


 
Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What is the previous name of Hochimich city?:

* Recent Posts

* China Affinity

* Provocative Journalism

* News Feeds