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Author Topic: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago  (Read 1874 times)

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Offline RedWine

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2019, 07:57:17 PM »
Another misconception is that at that time China is way to the north with the Shang and the Qin so they are nowhere close to VN.  It is not China that we come from.  I believe our ancestors are the ones who hold the bronze cultures.

Also the Vietnamese myth of 50 sons and 50 daughters hold some similarities.  It tells to the mountain people coming down from the mountains and displacing the people at the sea.


Yes, even today there are many southern tribes. Some have assimilated into the Han culture and others maintained their own identity.
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Offline Olive Juice

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2019, 11:02:30 PM »
From his studies/research, my dad never believed we came from China.  This is a great thread.

umm...what?

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2019, 06:03:37 AM »
Another misconception is that at that time China is way to the north with the Shang and the Qin so they are nowhere close to VN.  It is not China that we come from.  I believe our ancestors are the ones who hold the bronze cultures.

Also the Vietnamese myth of 50 sons and 50 daughters hold some similarities.  It tells to the mountain people coming down from the mountains and displacing the people at the sea.
I.e. My Mon-Khmer ancestors came and conquered the Tais in Hanoi. Thank you for proving that I was right all along.

Offline gaden

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2019, 09:52:47 PM »
I.e. My Mon-Khmer ancestors came and conquered the Tais in Hanoi. Thank you for proving that I was right all along.


Uhh...no,it was the Man Bac not the Tais.  I believe the Man Bac's are more related to Malays or Indonesians.

Offline Selurong

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2019, 06:15:06 AM »

Uhh...no,it was the Man Bac not the Tais.  I believe the Man Bac's are more related to Malays or Indonesians.

I believe so too.
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Offline RedWine

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2019, 07:59:25 AM »
I think part of the Chu tribes from Spring and Autumn period were AustroAsiatic speakers.

“Due to the Chu's absorption of indigenous elements from the Baiyue lands that it conquered in the south, substrate influences from Hmong–Mien, Kra-Dai or Austroasiatic have been proposed on the basis of epigraphic materials from the three centuries before the destruction of Chu.”

Sources:
Behr, Wolfgang (2017). "The language of the bronze inscriptions". In Shaughnessy, Edward L. Kinship: Studies of Recently Discovered Bronze Inscritpions from Ancient China. The Chinese University Press of Hong Kong. pp. 9–32. ISBN 978-9-629-96639-3.

Behr, Wolfgang (2009). "Dialects, diachrony, diglossia or all three? Tomb text glimpses into the language(s) of Chǔ". TTW-3, Zürich, 26.-29.VI.2009, "Genius Loci": 1–48.

Behr, Wolfgang (2006). "Some Chŭ 楚 words in early Chinese literature". EACL-4, Budapest: 1–21.

Chamberlain, James R. (2016). "Kra-Dai and the Proto-History of South China and Vietnam". Journal of the Siam Society. 104: 27–77.


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Offline Olive Juice

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2019, 09:03:49 AM »
I pinned this thread for easy access.  I feel this is one of the best threads we ever have.

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2019, 05:41:22 PM »
I think part of the Chu tribes from Spring and Autumn period were AustroAsiatic speakers.

The problem is that there is not much of linguistic connection between Vietic languages and the languages that currently exist in the Chu state area. There is actually more evidence to support a south - north continuum of Vietic languages from Central Laos to North Vietnam than a north - south continuum from Chinese languages with very few Austroasiatic vocabulary to Vietnamese. And i don't think the dispersed tribes of Mon-Khmer speakers in the Chu state would have thought of North Vietnam as their migratory destination since Vietnam was still geographically much further than any other non Hanized areas of Southern China.

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2019, 06:04:04 PM »
From his studies/research, my dad never believed we came from China.  This is a great thread.

Then where did the Nui Nap come from?

Offline gooddoctor

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2019, 06:51:56 AM »
Then where did the Nui Nap come from?
around Dong Son district, Thanh Hoa

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2019, 07:04:44 AM »
around Dong Son district, Thanh Hoa

So the Nui Nap migrated from Central Laos to Central Vietnam and then northward towards the Red River Delta?

http://www.siamese-heritage.org/jsspdf/1991/JSS_086_0c_Chamberlain_OriginsOfSek.pdf
This paper (published in 1998) argues that modern Vietnamese came from Thanh Hoa and displaced the Tai speakers in Red River Delta.

(To me, while the paper makes sense from a linguistic perspective, it doesn't dive into genetic aspect of a population and totally discounts the north to south migratory pattern of many ethnics)

Offline gaden

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2019, 04:32:37 PM »
Then where did the Nui Nap come from?


I think The Nui Lap people come from the northern mountainous regions, those whop hold the Dong Son bronze age culture.   I believe they've found the earliest Dong Son artifacts in Yunnan, China.  So it is most likely that the Nui Lap people migrated from that region.

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2019, 05:10:26 PM »

I think The Nui Lap people come from the northern mountainous regions, those whop hold the Dong Son bronze age culture.   I believe they've found the earliest Dong Son artifacts in Yunnan, China.  So it is most likely that the Nui Lap people migrated from that region.

Yunnan is theorised to have been the homeland of Austro-Asiatic speakers before the Tibeto-Burman migrated southwards from Tibetan plateau and became the ethnic majority in Yunnan. So it makes sense to hypothesise that the Nui Nap came from the Northwest region of Vietnam or Yunnan since the sources of the rivers in Red River Delta are located in Northwest Vietnam & Yunnan. On the other hand, given the historical fact that Northeast Vietnam & Guangxi have always been dominated by Tai speakers like Zhuang, Tay & Nung along with the small amount of Tai vocabulary that was written down only in Sino-Vietnamese, we can safely assume that there isn't any ancient connection between Vietnamese and Tai speakers in Northeast Vietnam & Guangxi so the hypothesis for Austroasiatic speakers to have come from that Tai speaking area is not likely to be true.

https://sites.google.com/a/uw.edu/vietnamstudiesgroup/discussion-networking/vsg-discussion-list-archives/vsg-discussion-2011/trung-sisters
https://www.academia.edu/3659357/Tai_Words_and_the_Place_of_the_Tai_in_the_Vietnamese_Past

Theorised linguistic map before Qin expansion


The questions remain for Northwest Vietnam / Yunnan origin of the Nui Nap is if they had originally been Austroasiatic speakers then why is modern Northwest Vietnam dominated by Tai speakers? Could it be that Tai speakers assimilate the Austroasiatic speakers in that area after the 10th century? Or could it be the Nui Nap that had originally spoken some form of Tai-Kadai adopted the Austroasiatic language of the Red River Delta natives? Nevertheless it is argued in some research papers that the Red River Delta inhabitants had actually spoken some form of Middle Chinese during the times of Chinese occupation and only started to incorporate more Austroasiatic elements existing in the southern frontier of Red River Delta into their language after Vietnam's independence from China in the 10th century or after Le Loi uprise in the 15th century to form what is now called Vietnamese.

https://www.academia.edu/483997/Re-Imagining_Annam_A_New_Analysis_of_Sino_Viet_Muong_Linguistic_Contact

Modern Tai Kadai linguistic map

The gap between Tai Kadai languages in Northwest Vietnam is filled with Hmong Mien languages

Modern Mon Khmer linguistic map



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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2019, 03:06:27 PM »
Now after some rethinking, Southern Yunnan is definitely not where we came from.

Yunnan might have been the original homeland of the Man Bac - who were present in Red River Delta 4000 years ago but Yunnan is definitely not the homeland of our Nui Nap ancestors.

Tai speakers (Zhuang, Dai) only migrated southwest from Guangxi to Northwest Vietnam, Laos & Northern Thailand after the 5th or 10th century so the presence of Dai ethnic in today Southern Yunnan doesn't prove that our Nui Nap ancestors used to be the natives of Yunnan but it proves rather the opposite - that our Nui Nap ancestors didn't come from Yunnan.

Also if our homeland had been in Southern Yunnan, it would have been recorded in Vietnamese history and that part of Yunnan would still be Vietnam's territory. And the we would have the control of the sources for our rivers in Red River Delta.

Historical records show that our ancestors were sea faring people that arrived in the Red River Delta and intermixed with the natives of Red River Delta. Why? Since Yunnan was never a part of North Vietnam but North Vietnam used to be a part Nanyue & was grouped with Guangxi, Guangdong as Lingnan area in many Chinese dynasties like Han, Wu & Tang, etc...

The migratory pattern of many ethnics have always been from Northeast to Southwest. The Dais were just following the footsteps of our Nui Nap ancestors but while our Nui Nap ancestors had arrived in North Vietnam, the ancestors of Dai ended up in Southern Yunnan, Laos & Northern Thailand. Where did our Nui Nap ancestors come from? Coastal Guangxi, coastal Guangdong (and probably coastal Southern Fujian)

But then where do our Austroasiatic genes come from? From the natives of Vietnam. Just like how the Dais absorbed Austroasiatics in Yunnan, our Nui Nap ancestors absorbed Austroasiatics in North Vietnam.

However it remains to be unsolved on how the Vietnamese language was formed when our ancestors are supposed to have come from Tai speaking areas.

"General" migration pattern of Tai speaking groups based on modern day distribution of Tai languages.

Offline gaden

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2019, 05:02:09 PM »
I think you cannot play linguistics and historical records or information into migratory patterns.  Vietnamese pick up Chinese vocabulary only as a way to form central government, much like how Korean and Japanese pick up Chinese vocabulary.  So, I think Vietnamese used to speak the Vietic language much like the Muong people when they moved down from the mountains.  If you want to remove Chinese influence to get a better visualization then probably trace the Muong people's lineage instead of Vietnamese.

Another clue is that the Dai people the most varied admixture, which means that they contain the oldest inhabitants in their respective region.  Vietnamese are most closest to Dai, so Vietnamese is most likely on the fringes of the Dai territory, maybe interacting and exchange culture.

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2019, 07:08:08 PM »

I think you cannot play linguistics and historical records or information into migratory patterns.  Vietnamese pick up Chinese vocabulary only as a way to form central government, much like how Korean and Japanese pick up Chinese vocabulary. 

So, I think Vietnamese used to speak the Vietic language much like the Muong people when they moved down from the mountains.  If you want to remove Chinese influence to get a better visualization then probably trace the Muong people's lineage instead of Vietnamese.

Another clue is that the Dai people the most varied admixture, which means that they contain the oldest inhabitants in their respective region.  Vietnamese are most closest to Dai, so Vietnamese is most likely on the fringes of the Dai territory, maybe interacting and exchange culture.

Yeah linguistics don't necessarily show the migratory pattern of a population. If people use only linguistic map to show the migratory pattern of Vietnamese ancestors then you would be like that Chamberlain guy claiming that we all came from Central Laos. However if you put everything together like historical records, linguistics map & genetic researches, they can definitely help you visualise the migratory pattern of a population. 

And one more fact: South China was never really sinicized until the Late Tang / Song dynasty, it was a land for Baiyue. Even till this day, the Zhuang ethnic still has considerable presence in Guangxi.

Therefore it makes sense to think that the natives of Red River Delta had always been Vietic speakers before the arrival of the Nui Nap. But what language did the Nui Nap speak when they arrived in Red River Delta? Did they speak a Tai language or an Mon-Khmer language? Genetically they cluster with Tai speakers like Dai but we as their descendants are speaking an Austroasiatic language. Are the Austroasiatic elements in Vietnamese enough to prove that our Nui Nap ancestors had been Austroasiatic speakers? Too many questions about the Nui Nap linguistic background that can get your head blown. Although at the end of the day, the Nui Nap's linguistic background wouldn't matter much since the Austroasiatic aspect of modern Vietnamese language is pretty much exclusive to Vietnam and doesn't have any origin that is more northern than Red River Delta.

Also you said that our ancestors had move down from the mountains, may i ask then from which mountains did they move down? Northwest Vietnam or Northeast Vietnam mountains? I need to know full details of the legend that you had mentioned of. Are you suggesting that we came from the south of Red River Delta and migrated northward into the Delta just like the Muong people who have always been living in southern fringe of Red River Delta? Such claim doesn't make sense to me because its the same as claiming our ancestors to have come from Central Laos.

Anyway Vietnamese have no ancient connection to the Dai. We are not even in the same nation with them Dais lol. We don't speak their language nor write their script. The Tai words we have in Vietnamese are just borrowed words and they were originally written down in Sino-Vietnamese. Tai speakers only became Vietnamese neighbours after the 10th century and most of the interactions between Vietnamse & Tai speakers in medieval times show that Vietnamese wanted to politically dominate Tai speakers and not just be on an equal footing with them. Its the Vietnamese who rule over Tai speakers in the Greater Red River Delta region and the relationship between Viets and Tai speakers is not some cultural friendship that has lasted for a thousand years. To put it simply: we absorbed Tai speakers into our Viet Realm.

Offline gaden

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2019, 11:36:48 AM »
I think you can use linguistics to deduct migration patterns to a degree, those within a language family.  As far as the Vietic language family, it is a subclass of Mon-Khmer language family.  Depends on when the separated.  Experts say that the Mon-Khmer group migrated along the Mekong river basin.  However the Vitic branch separated and migrated more eastward towards the Red River basin.  I believe that's where they interact with the Dai people.  From there they migrate down the Red River valley once they develop better metallurgy technology for warfare and agriculture.  I believe I heard some experts same that Vietnamese pick up the tones from the Tais.

As far as when the Vietnamese separated from the Mon-Khmer group, you have to go back maybe 5,000-10,000 years, if you have archeological data back that far.  Perhaps you can also trace back on the DNA branching to see what subclass of people Vietnamese belong to.

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2019, 06:58:23 AM »
I think you can use linguistics to deduct migration patterns to a degree, those within a language family.  As far as the Vietic language family, it is a subclass of Mon-Khmer language family.  Depends on when the separated.  Experts say that the Mon-Khmer group migrated along the Mekong river basin.  However the Vietic branch separated and migrated more eastward towards the Red River basin.  I believe that's where they interact with the Dai people.  From there they migrate down the Red River valley once they develop better metallurgy technology for warfare and agriculture.  I believe I heard some experts same that Vietnamese pick up the tones from the Tais.


The inhabitants of today Northern Laos are a mix bag of Austroasiatic speakers and Tai speakers



So it makes sense to think that there was also a fusion of Austroasiatic speakers and Tai or proto Cantonese speakers in Northern Vietnam at some point. But Tai speakers or proto Cantonese speakers were later migrants while Austroasiatic speakers had been earlier inhabitants of North Vietnam. Both groups were put under the administration of Sinitic speakers, hence sinicization was much more favoured and the linguistic influence of Tai speakers on native Austroasiatic speakers was minimised. During a millennia of Chinese rule, Austroasiatic speakers gradually gained more political power & linguistic influence due to stronger base support in the southern & western fringe of Red River Delta while Tai / proto Cantonese speakers were likely to have been more sinicized and then vieticized in Northern Vietnam.

In short: the Sinitic aspect of Vietnamese language is due to the borrowing of Sinitic vocabulary. The Mon - Khmer grammar of Vietnamese is derived from the natives of North Vietnam. How Daic tones got into Vietnamese language is probably due to long time interaction with Tai speakers & Cantonese speakers. Simple origins of Vietnamese: Vietic speaking tribes + Nanyue tribes (proto Yue speakers & probably proto Minnan speakers)

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Re: We are not the same people who inhabited Vietnam 4000 years ago
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2019, 08:06:31 AM »
Also "Muong" is a 20th century ethnic label invented by the French during their colonial rule of Vietnam. The name "Muong" is actually derived from the place they inhabit & their upland agricultural practice. Before the 20th century there was no ethnic called "Muong". They were simply a group of Vietic speakers living in the highlands in the southern fringe of Red River Delta.  "Muong" language can be understood by Vietnamese from about 40 to 60% and "Muong" people worship Le Loi - one of Vietnamese historical figures.  Modern day ethnic labels make you think that there has always been a clear distinction between 2 groups "Kinh" Vietnamese and "Muong" but such distinction wasn't there in the past. We Vietnamese live in the lowlands, come in contact with Sinitic speakers, adopt more Sinitic cultural elements and expand our territory southward along the coast while "Muong" people live in the uplands, come in contact more with Tai speakers and adopt more Tai cultural elements. At the end of the day, Viet and "Muong" all came from Vietic speaking tribes in North Vietnam.

 

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