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Author Topic: Geopolitical history of Northern Vietnam  (Read 731 times)

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Offline gaden

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Re: Geopolitical history of Northern Vietnam
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2019, 09:18:39 AM »
First guy looks Thai. 
Second guy looks Mongolian-Uighur mix. 
Third guy looks Indian.

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Re: Geopolitical history of Northern Vietnam
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2019, 01:25:36 PM »




I applaud my fellow Viets for seeing history the way it unfolded, and not cling to some blind ethnocentrism that is characteristic of the mainland Chinese, Koreans and Japanese.  I do notice that over time the Chinese in Taiwan and even the Japanese start to recognize the multi-ethnic interactions of various native peoples that made up their current population.  The Japanese to this day still look more like light skinned Filipinos than the slanty eyed Koreans and Manchus. 

There are really two factors that shape ethnic identity.  The first is one of constant abuse and the second stems from pride.  Various invasions from China formed the ethnic identity of Vietnam. Various re-invasions of Southern China by Vietnam forced the sinicized aboriginals in China to become more Han.  The Northern Chinese have always maintained a strong ethnocentrism precisely because they have been invaded and abused for so long by so many different ethnic groups.  The Chinese adopted this "we are all Han Chinese" despite having mutually incomprehensible languages as a defense mechanism to distribute the load of historical trauma on more people thereby diffuse its negative effects.  As more Chinese people buy into this blind ethnocentrism, they find it normative to suddenly break down and cry and blame everything from back pain to slow wifi to long line at the KFC on the Japanese for cathartic release.

Now, we have Asian groups that seem to have it good historically but still maintain a strong ethnic identity, such as the Khmers and Japanese.  They did a lot of conquering rather being conquered.  Their ethnocentrism stems from pride and they see it on a daily basis.  The Khmers see their culture dominated the culture of Thailand and Laos in the same way the Italians see their culture dominated a big chunk of Europe.  Vietnam is unique in that we suffered from historical invasions but did a lot of invasions of our own.  Therefore, a Vietnamese with a broad understanding of our nation´s history should logically be even more ethnocentric than some of our neighbors.  We were beaten before we became great.  That sounds like Jews of Asia doesn´t it?



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Re: Geopolitical history of Northern Vietnam
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2019, 02:21:55 PM »
I applaud my fellow Viets for seeing history the way it unfolded, and not cling to some blind ethnocentrism that is characteristic of the mainland Chinese, Koreans and Japanese.  I do notice that over time the Chinese in Taiwan and even the Japanese start to recognize the multi-ethnic interactions of various native peoples that made up their current population. 
History is way more interesting if its not told from nationalist / ethnocentric perspective. To know history is to know what one's ancestors had been through and appreciate the sacrifices that one's ancestors had made. But i do find it ironic for Chinese in Taiwan to adopt Mandarin as their national language when their ancestors were the ones that fled from Manchu rule in the first place. All the sacrifices that the ancestors of these Chinese in Taiwan had made to perserve their linguistic background got diminished by the so called "Han" national unity.

There are really two factors that shape ethnic identity.  The first is one of constant abuse and the second stems from pride.  Various invasions from China formed the ethnic identity of Vietnam.
I agree that Vietnamese are more united against Chinese / foreign rule than we are united as an ethnic group. Its an ethno-political identity - a group of southern people with their own civility values.

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Re: Geopolitical history of Northern Vietnam
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2019, 02:34:07 PM »
This white guy actually made some very astute observations about China.  Han Chinese identity thrives on victimhood to survive.


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Re: Geopolitical history of Northern Vietnam
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2019, 10:29:37 AM »
This white guy actually made some very astute observations about China.  Han Chinese identity thrives on victimhood to survive.
To learn history is to know how a group of people ideologically evolve. And this is my take on modern day Han Chinese identity.

First of all, the Manchus didn't rule over a China full of modern day "Han" nationalists that kept rebelling against the Manchu rule year after year. The Manchus ruled over China where there were many Chinese who pledged their loyalty to the Manchus and urged other people in the surrounding kingdoms to do the same. The Manchus rule over a population that are proud to be the citizens of a big empire and call themselves Qing people. Thats how the Manchus was able to rule over China for almost 3 centuries and conquer outer regions like Tibet, Mongolia, Xinjiang.

The average Chinese in the past pledged their loyalty to their ruling elites not solely because they & the ruling elites of China were from the same ethnic background. To the average Chinese in the past, their ruling elites had always been a distant group of high class people whom they would never have a chance to meet anyway. Many of them weren't bothered by the ethnic difference between a Manchu emperor and a Ming emperor as long as their businesses weren't affected by the new laws imposed by the Manchu rulers.

But how did Chinese evolve from being a group of people who were willing to pledge their loyalty to the foreign Manchu rulers to the ones that see themselves being oppressed and recognizing the need to unite among themselves to overthrow their feudal Manchu overlords in order to establish a new republic is the real center point of modern Chinese history. Unlike Japan who went captalist the easy way, China was a battleground between fedeulism & captalism. And how such a idealogical shift from feudalism to captalism took place in China is a topic worthy of discussion because this idealogical shift is what actually form modern day Chinese nation.

Its not the legacy of Han/Tang dynasties - the empires whose cultural heritage got destroyed by the modern day Chinese during the Cultural revolution and whose rulers got overthrown and persecuted by Chinese's ancestors thousands of years ago that constitute modern day Han identity. Any Chinese claiming their people & modern day China to inherit the legacy of these dynasties is the same as a European claiming their people & their nation to be the inheritor of the Roman empire. Chinese are not ideologically the same people as their ancestors from thousands of years ago anymore just as the Europeans aren't ideologically the same people of the Roman empire, which is a good thing for China & Chinese themselves.

If Chinese had been truly "Han" people, they would have found a descendant from Han aristocratic family in Northern China and enthroned him to be the new emperor of China instead of having supported Sun Yat Sen from Guangdong to be their president. And their ancestors would have been rolling in their graves thinking "wtf i thought we were done with this Han empire a long time ago". lol. Modern day "Han" is just a borrowed name and doesn't hold the same ideological values from the people of Han dynasty. Modern day Chinese had already ideologically evolved from just being the people of a feudal dynasty. Going back to to the age of Han dynasty in order to prove the existence of a 2-3 thousands years long "Chinese" identity would only make them look more backwards as a group of people.

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Re: Geopolitical history of Northern Vietnam
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2019, 07:21:15 AM »
blind ethnocentrism that is characteristic of the mainland Chinese

Various re-invasions of Southern China by Vietnam forced the sinicized aboriginals in China to become more Han. The Northern Chinese have always maintained a strong ethnocentrism precisely because they have been invaded and abused for so long by so many different ethnic groups.  The Chinese adopted this "we are all Han Chinese" despite having mutually incomprehensible languages as a defense mechanism to distribute the load of historical trauma on more people thereby diffuse its negative effects. As more Chinese people buy into this blind ethnocentrism, they find it normative to suddenly break down and cry and blame everything from back pain to slow wifi to long line at the KFC on the Japanese for cathartic release.

Chinese don't fully understand the context of "Han" term that was written in their historical records. "Han" as a people term was first labelled to the former subjects / followers of Han emperors in Northern China. It was rarely used by Chinese after the fall of Han dynasty because saying you were a Han person at that time would only make you a target for persecution by other powerful clans. Only when Chinese forgot how terrible the last Han emperors had been is when Chinese started to admire the Han empire and its legacy. Thats why Han Chinese is a modern term. The further Chinese went back to the past to see how the term "Han" was used, the more disconnected that term is to modern day Chinese population. The ancestors of modern day Han Chinese were not Han loyalists that cherish the legacy of Han dynasty but the people that overthrew and killed their Han emperors.

Offline MultipleCoresOneCpu

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Re: Geopolitical history of Northern Vietnam
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2019, 07:35:41 AM »
Every time there was an overthrow of authority in China didn't necessarily meant the rulers were not the same ethnicity as the ones being ruled over.  It wouldn't make sense to speak of a French revolution had the people being unruly and rebellious for whatever reason were not French and the people being overthrown were not French either.  Such a thing in context of a Vietnamese independence struggle would have been termed by Han Chinese not as a Vietnamese revolution but a Vietnamese uprising. Or if you want to extend this to other contexts Catalonia they would first vote to secede from the Spanish government before being backed by their own military to enforce their particular uprising if the Spanish people did not comply with their desire to separate.

In Chinese history the northern part of China was always full of ethnic groups that were more sided with the nomadic cultural side but once settled predominantly established for themselves the ways of the Chinese and eventually merged with the Han Chinese and became pro Han Chinese.  So instead of going the other way and pulling out of Han Chinese affairs they completely integrated and became Han themselves.  Who would have thought that such a thing could have taken place given the fact that at multiple points in history they were ethnic rulers distinct from the Han Chinese and kept mostly to themselves during their periods of rule and spoke their own language.  But in light of that in the end they still made the case to adopt the Chinese character system and basically destroyed their own tongues in favor of Sino-Tibetan languages.
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Re: Geopolitical history of Northern Vietnam
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2019, 05:35:36 PM »
Every time there was an overthrow of authority in China didn't necessarily meant the rulers were not the same ethnicity as the ones being ruled over.   

In Chinese history the northern part of China was always full of ethnic groups that were more sided with the nomadic cultural side but once settled predominantly established for themselves the ways of the Chinese and eventually merged with the Han Chinese and became pro Han Chinese.  So instead of going the other way and pulling out of Han Chinese affairs they completely integrated and became Han themselves.  Who would have thought that such a thing could have taken place given the fact that at multiple points in history they were ethnic rulers distinct from the Han Chinese and kept mostly to themselves during their periods of rule and spoke their own language.  But in light of that in the end they still made the case to adopt the Chinese character system and basically destroyed their own tongues in favor of Sino-Tibetan languages.
I don't know when the term "Han" was first used to refer to Chinese people but i know that if Chinese went back to the 3 kingdoms period and proclaimed themselves as Han people, other rival clans would have sent their men to kill them off in order to exterminate the last remnants of Han family / Han supporters. So yeah Han identity was not as widely adopted by Chinese at that time as it is now. "Han" Chinese a modern ethnic label that you are using. The Chinese in Northern China after the fall of Han dynasty might be the same group of people but the "Han" as an ethnic label didn't exist for the Chinese in Northern China at that time. Also it is proven in many linguistic researches that linguistic landscape of Northern China was definitely influenced by nomadic peoples. Nomadic peoples didn't simply "destroy their own tongues" since Chinese in Northern China couldn't retain their own tongues like they wanted it to be at the same time

 

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