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Offline gaden

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What is sino-viet word for cow?
« on: May 23, 2018, 10:36:16 AM »
PHỞ CON BÒ doesn't seem too appetizing.


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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2018, 12:23:45 PM »
Cattle ranching was introduced to Vietnam by the French.  Vietnamese did not eat much beef prior to the French occupation.  This is why we don´t have a Han Viet word for beef or if we had one I have never heard of it.  The word beef in Vietnamese is very similar to the french word "bœuf".  I suspect that the Vietnamese word "bò" is our attempt to say "bờff".

PHỞ CON BÒ doesn't seem too appetizing.



Offline gaden

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2018, 01:20:45 PM »
What about buffalo?

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2018, 02:14:58 PM »
Chinese don´t have separate words for cow and buffalo.  Buffalo in Chinese is water cow.  Cantonese and Mandarin word for cow sound nothing like our word for cow, same with Thai and Khmer.  So trâu is likely a native Vietnamese word while bò is likely a French loan word.  The Vietnamese language has many Han Viet words for colloquial use but there is a trend to use the non Han Viet words over time.  Then there is a Southern/Northern difference with Northern people still using many Han Viet words with clear influence from Chinese pronunciation likely due to trade and contact with the Southern Chinese.  This is the reason Hanoi people pride themselves in not being able to say the "r" sound properly but to me that is a symptom of Chinese cultural infection not something to be proud of.  The Koreans and Japanese have similar problems with "r".

What about buffalo?

Offline gaden

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2018, 03:33:59 PM »
Doesn't Vietnam or the east Asian countries have cows in the past?  I'm pretty sure they get cows from India, so why no reference for cows?

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2018, 04:33:04 PM »
Vietnam has a very rich biodiversity so there existed various types of native wild bovines (banteng, kouprey and others) which can be domesticated but Vietnamese people got stuck in Sinospherian thinking and used water buffalos, not even for meat, milk, cheese, leather, and other useful byproducts, but as the main beast of burden for rice cultivation.  Cattle are much more domesticated compared to buffalos even thousands of years ago.  This would be like skipping over a motorbike for a bicycle, and not even for transport, but as a rowboat anchor.  The technology to process all bovine byproducts, such as cheese making and leather tanning, are well known in the East.  In fact, much of this early technology originated in the Middle East and made its way to Western Europe.  There is no question Eastern Asians, particularly the Chinese, know about these technologies but scoffed at it as inventions of barbarians.  The Mongols, Turks and various Manchus in fact ate a lot of cheese and yoghurt as nomads but when they conquered China dropped this out of their diet for dumplings and that sweet and sour pork loved by the Hans.

I think the main reason Vietnamese people don´t have a native word for cow is that all the benefits that come with cattle ranching have not been demonstrated until the Jesuits arrived, who started some of the first cattle ranch in Vietnam.  This would be like a very valuable technology that the Jesuits carried with them but even our Nguyen royals didn´t care much for it to start any royal cattle ranch.  Again, same mistake as the Chinese.  If the royals didn´t care, why should some Vietnamese peasant take it on himself to do a cattle ranching start-up only to get beheaded for being too Christian?  This also explains why most Vietnamese are lactose intolerant, which is a default state for all humans until they begin to consume more dairy products.  The reason we don´t have a word for cow is simply because Vietnamese people did not know the true value of cows.  I was born lactose intolerant but nowadays I enjoy my roquefort like a French agriculteur.  Had I lived in the 1800s, I think Vietnamese people would have a native word for cow by now.  I appreciate cows even more than a Hindu because I don´t mind eating one.

Doesn't Vietnam or the east Asian countries have cows in the past?  I'm pretty sure they get cows from India, so why no reference for cows?

Offline literallyChina

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2018, 03:56:53 AM »
The Chinese character for cattle (cow, ox, bulls, water buffalo i.e. bovines in general) is 牛

I looked it up the Sino-Vietnamese readings for 牛。
These include:
ngưu, ngọ, ngỏ, ngõ, ngâu

From my understanding the first word, ngưu, describes cattle / bovine.

[img width=440 height=120]http://orig05.deviantart.net/7f58/f/2011/296/d/0/ta_ge_by_taiyangg

Offline literallyChina

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2018, 04:19:59 AM »
Chinese don´t have separate words for cow and buffalo.  Buffalo in Chinese is water cow.  Cantonese and Mandarin word for cow sound nothing like our word for cow, same with Thai and Khmer.  So trâu is likely a native Vietnamese word while bò is likely a French loan word.  The Vietnamese language has many Han Viet words for colloquial use but there is a trend to use the non Han Viet words over time.  Then there is a Southern/Northern difference with Northern people still using many Han Viet words with clear influence from Chinese pronunciation likely due to trade and contact with the Southern Chinese.  This is the reason Hanoi people pride themselves in not being able to say the "r" sound properly but to me that is a symptom of Chinese cultural infection not something to be proud of.  The Koreans and Japanese have similar problems with "r".

Chinese does have separate words for cows and water buffalo.

牛 is bovine or cattle in general

乳牛 (rüniu) is dairy cattle
水牛 (shuiniu) is water buffalo
[img width=440 height=120]http://orig05.deviantart.net/7f58/f/2011/296/d/0/ta_ge_by_taiyangg

Offline Vietfaces

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2018, 05:11:59 AM »
Vietnam has a very rich biodiversity so there existed various types of native wild bovines (banteng, kouprey and others) which can be domesticated but Vietnamese people got stuck in Sinospherian thinking and used water buffalos, not even for meat, milk, cheese, leather, and other useful byproducts, but as the main beast of burden for rice cultivation.  Cattle are much more domesticated compared to buffalos even thousands of years ago.  This would be like skipping over a motorbike for a bicycle, and not even for transport, but as a rowboat anchor.  The technology to process all bovine byproducts, such as cheese making and leather tanning, are well known in the East.  In fact, much of this early technology originated in the Middle East and made its way to Western Europe.  There is no question Eastern Asians, particularly the Chinese, know about these technologies but scoffed at it as inventions of barbarians.  The Mongols, Turks and various Manchus in fact ate a lot of cheese and yoghurt as nomads but when they conquered China dropped this out of their diet for dumplings and that sweet and sour pork loved by the Hans.

I think the main reason Vietnamese people don´t have a native word for cow is that all the benefits that come with cattle ranching have not been demonstrated until the Jesuits arrived, who started some of the first cattle ranch in Vietnam.  This would be like a very valuable technology that the Jesuits carried with them but even our Nguyen royals didn´t care much for it to start any royal cattle ranch.  Again, same mistake as the Chinese.  If the royals didn´t care, why should some Vietnamese peasant take it on himself to do a cattle ranching start-up only to get beheaded for being too Christian?  This also explains why most Vietnamese are lactose intolerant, which is a default state for all humans until they begin to consume more dairy products.  The reason we don´t have a word for cow is simply because Vietnamese people did not know the true value of cows.  I was born lactose intolerant but nowadays I enjoy my roquefort like a French agriculteur.  Had I lived in the 1800s, I think Vietnamese people would have a native word for cow by now.  I appreciate cows even more than a Hindu because I don´t mind eating one.

Buffaloes and cows (bulls and cows) were already domesticated in VN thousands of years ago. They both had their uses.

"3- Nông nghiệp

Nhờ  vào phát hiện được  các loại lưỡi cày và nhiều di vật văn hóa Đông Sơn có xương trâu, bò, các nhà khảo cổ  làm một bộ sưu tập các lưỡi cày bằng đồng, đồng thời  nhận định rằng: Bò   sống trên đồng cạn  còn Trâu chuyên sống trong vùng đồng lầy, và lưỡi cày được phát hiện là dụng cụ  dành cho ruộng đồng lầy.  Như vậy thì  nông nghiệp  cư dân Đông Sơn thời Hùng Vương  vừa trên đất cạn vừa dưới đồng sâu.. Dưới đồng sâu tất nhiên cư dân Đông Sơn sống bằng nghề   trồng  lúa nước với con trâu  và lưỡi cày   Họ chăn nuôi trâu, bò để lấy sức kéo và phân bón nhằm phục vụ cho nông nghiệp vậy."


http://www.vanhoaviet.info/vhdongson.htm

---

Ancient Viets ate lots of buffaloes and cows (bulls and cows). Archaeologists found lots of buffalo and cow bones (made up 50.84% of the bones of the vertebrates found) at the ruins of the imperial citadel of Thang Long.

"Tuy thành phần loài động vật tìm được tại khu Hoàng thành Thăng Long khá đa dạng nhưng mật độ lại không đồng đều, có những loài có số lượng lên đến hàng trăm, hàng nghìn mẫu nhưng có những loài số lượng mẫu rất ít, chỉ một vài mẫu. Trường hợp các xương nhỏ bị bỏ sót trong quá trình khai quật là không đáng kể, còn lại số lượng mẫu này có thể phán ánh khá trung thực bức tranh về những loại tàn tích thức ăn của Hoàng cung Thăng Long khi xưa. Nghiên cứu mức độ phân bố các loại mẫu di cốt động vật này cho phép các nhà khoa học mường tượng một phần đời sống sinh hoạt, những loại thực phẩm được ưa chuộng và những loại thực phẩm ít khi được sử dụng tới trong các bữa ăn của vua chúa, triều thần sống trong Hoàng cung Thăng Long.

Với nhóm các loại thực phẩm được ưa chuộng, trước tiên phải kể tới đó là nhóm động vật thuộc họ sừng rỗng (chủ yếu là trâu bò) sau đó là họ lợn và cuối cùng là họ ngựa. Mẫu di cốt của những loài động vật này gần như hố khai quật nào cũng xuất hiện và số lượng mẫu tại mỗi hố là tương đối lớn. Số mẫu xương trâu bò chiếm đến 50,84%, lợn chiếm 17,5% và ngựa là 7,89%. Tổng số xương của ba nhóm động vật này đã lên đến 76,23% số xương thu thập được, đã định loại. Ngoài ra, có một số lượng lớn xương động vật (9,88%) là không xác định được thuộc loài nào, nhưng hầu hết chúng đều là những mảnh xương to, có thể xác định đại đa số chúng cũng thuộc vào nhóm động vật này (Biểu đồ 1).

Nhiều xương trâu bò tìm thấy trong khu di tích Hoàng thành Thăng Long có dấu vết cắt hoặc bị chặt. Tuy trong các báo cáo không trình bày số liệu thống kê về tuổi của các loài động vật, nhưng theo ghi nhận của các nhà cổ sinh vật học trong quá trình chỉnh lý về mức độ mọc răng, độ mòn răng và mức độ liền của đầu khớp xương thì bộ sưu tập xương trâu bò ở khu di tích phần lớn là thuộc những cá thể sắp trưởng thành và trưởng thành, rất hiếm cá thể già. Trái lại, các mẫu xương của lợn tìm được ở đây, phần nhiều là các cá thể non hay lợn sữa, chỉ có một số mẫu vật được xác định là lợn rừng có tuổi rất già (Nguyễn Anh Tuấn 2009). Điều này cho thấy, những con vật làm thực phẩm trong Hoàng cung đều được lựa chọn kĩ lưỡng, là những cá thể cung cấp thịt ngon nhất và nhiều chất dinh dưỡng nhất. Còn những cá thể già, có thể chúng được dùng để phục vụ cho việc giải trí trong Hoàng cung như tạo các cuộc đấu giữa những con lợn rừng chăng?"



Buffalo and cow horns (10th to 9th century) found at the imperial citadel of Thang Long.

http://viennghiencuukinhthanh.com/UserControls/Publishing/News/BinhLuan/pFormPrint.aspx?UrlListProcess=/content/tintuc/lists/TinHoatDong&ListId=&SiteId=&ItemID=143&SiteRootID=&isEn=False

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2018, 07:48:04 PM »
Those fragments were not numerous enough to suggest cattle ranching.  Bovine horns were used by numerous cultures as drinking vessels and utensils as they were the first natural plastics since they could be molded to any shape using pressure and heat.

Offline Vietfaces

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2018, 08:37:55 PM »
Read the Vietnamese pages. I guess your Vietnamese is bad?

Horns are used to identify whether they are bulls-cows or buffalos. They didn't just find their horns but their skeletons too (lots of them) with cut marks. And, the bones were mostly of those that were not old or young which are at the perfect stage for eating.

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2018, 08:52:04 AM »
So why did they stop cattle ranching?

Offline Vietfaces

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2018, 09:01:06 AM »
I think back then families generally only raised some for their own uses (to pull, carry stuff, to get the dung to fertilize plants, and to eat, and to sell for money) just like a lot of Vietnamese families in the 1980s did, when VN was still quite poor, not large scale like today.

Offline gaden

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2018, 04:04:22 PM »
Vietnamese doesn't have widespread uses for cow products like milk or cheese.  Water buffaloes are use as draught animal already. 

Also if you butcher a cow there is less chance of you selling everything in one day because there's too much meat, so the size is inconvenient.

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2019, 09:41:37 PM »
I don´t trust those Vietnamese sources.   Beef tastes too good to be abandoned completely for thousands of years only to rediscover it when the Jesuits arrived.

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2019, 10:01:53 PM »
I don´t trust those Vietnamese sources.   Beef tastes too good to be abandoned completely for thousands of years only to rediscover it when the Jesuits arrived.
Beef is delicious. The Sinospherian Japanese were far more open-minded than China on this regard, and they bred the sumptuous "Kobe Beef".

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2019, 04:57:59 PM »
Chinese pork dishes are not that good.  The Chinese like that "raw" pork taste which I totally despise.  We Vietnamese herbify the hell out of pork and it tastes especially good.  I recommend you try Vietnamese pork dishes.  Tastes really different from Chinese pork dishes. 

Beef is delicious. The Sinospherian Japanese were far more open-minded than China on this regard, and they bred the sumptuous "Kobe Beef".

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Re: What is sino-viet word for cow?
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2019, 06:13:11 PM »
The Chinese character for cattle (cow, ox, bulls, water buffalo i.e. bovines in general) is 牛

I looked it up the Sino-Vietnamese readings for 牛。
These include:
ngưu, ngọ, ngỏ, ngõ, ngâu

From my understanding the first word, ngưu, describes cattle / bovine.



Pho King ngưu  như bò.

 
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