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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2019, 06:16:12 AM »
what do you expect of the Southern Chinese when they call their own languages dialects? They don´t even bother to read about their own local history and write with 3000 years old holograms imposed on them when most of the world has agreed that alphabets are a better written communication technology.

Southern Chinese seem to not know their history. Their ancestors were seen as barbarians during Tang dynasty. I saw some of them tried so hard to prove how "Han" they are in online forums (O3 yDNA, defeating the Mongols, etc...) while their ancestors never craved for such label in the first place.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2019, 06:19:18 AM »
There are two type of the Northerners.  Nation founding Northerners and Chinese dyck sucking Northerners.  The former tend to be richer and more culturally advanced.

That honor should go to dirt poor Northern Vietnamese who running the country and their children go online boasting they relate to East Asian and claim Southern Vietnamese relate to Cham and Khmer. Shameless people speaking as if Japanese and Korean want to relate to them. I remember back when they try to link themselves to Southern Chinese, that angered the Chinese though they are somewhat related via Tai Kradai DNA lol.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2019, 06:43:30 AM »
what do you expect of the Southern Chinese when they call their own languages dialects? They don´t even bother to read about their own local history and write with 3000 years old holograms imposed on them when most of the world has agreed that alphabets are a better written communication technology.

The thing is that even when their ancestors were seen as barbarians, they didn't have any sort of inferiority complex against other Chinese at that time. Modern Southern Chinese have completely different mentality from their ancestors. If China didn't promote Han chauvinism, Chinese history would be far more interesting to learn because in it are all the stories of interactions between so many different groups of people. Those interactions are what make China what it is today, not Han chauvinism.

Offline AnNamMit

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2019, 08:07:02 PM »
The Chinese mtDNA has almost 39% are those Tai R9F. 22% are Austronesian natives M7 and 9% N are SEA. They and northern Vietnamese related via Tai R9F, both speak and act the same, boastful, often claim to relate to North East Asian, superficial.

Quote
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-12813-6/figures/1


The Chinese paternal lineage predominant O3 are those central Asian, not even considered East Asian. however, they kept claiming they are East Asian relate to Korean and Japanese.  -whew

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2019, 05:12:37 AM »
Chinese have always lost to much smaller groups.  I don´t think they have individual strength.  This is the reason China will not be a military superpower.  If things get real hot between Japan and China I highly doubt the Chinese will last despite having vastly numerical advantage.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2019, 05:49:22 AM »
The Chinese mtDNA has almost 39% are those Tai R9F. 22% are Austronesian natives M7 and 9% N are SEA. They and northern Vietnamese related via Tai R9F, both speak and act the same, boastful, often claim to relate to North East Asian, superficial.
 

Hoa =/= Chinese. Most Hoa in Vietnam came from Guangdong. 

Offline Gāokējì

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2019, 07:42:06 AM »
The Chinese mtDNA has almost 39% are those Tai R9F. 22% are Austronesian natives M7 and 9% N are SEA. They and northern Vietnamese related via Tai R9F, both speak and act the same, boastful, often claim to relate to North East Asian, superficial.
 

The Chinese paternal lineage predominant O3 are those central Asian, not even considered East Asian. however, they kept claiming they are East Asian relate to Korean and Japanese.  -whew

Well there are studies which show that Japanese/Korean are related to each other by such and such a percentage and while that much is known neither is it a stretch when the studies also show Chinese to be related to Japanese/Korean by such and such a percentage.  Is this being boastful?  Not unless you think it is somehow a privilege to be included among them.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2019, 07:53:13 AM »
Chinese have always lost to much smaller groups.  I don´t think they have individual strength.  This is the reason China will not be a military superpower.  If things get real hot between Japan and China I highly doubt the Chinese will last despite having vastly numerical advantage.
It's all about technological superiority.  If an outer space alien race decided to attack earthlings they would only need to bring one ship across the vastness of space, arm their super lasers and start blasting away at cities all while shielding themselves from nuclear bombardment.  This analogy is not far from what happened when the Mongols beat the Chinese in the 13th century except they had to steal Chinese engineers to obtain siege weapons.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2019, 07:59:46 AM »
The thing is that even when their ancestors were seen as barbarians, they didn't have any sort of inferiority complex against other Chinese at that time. Modern Southern Chinese have completely different mentality from their ancestors. If China didn't promote Han chauvinism, Chinese history would be far more interesting to learn because in it are all the stories of interactions between so many different groups of people. Those interactions are what make China what it is today, not Han chauvinism.

No, you have the wrong idea and it is pretty much cut and dry.  Historical Chinese never thought of themselves as barbarians precisely because of Han chauvinism.  It might not have been called that at the time but the concept of ethnocentrism was alive and well to a large degree.  You don't get a nation comprising of 90+ percent Han for its entire history since its earliest days of inception without having that racist edge.  It is only now during the 20th and 21st centuries that all groups within China are allowed to have a seat in the central government.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2019, 11:32:13 AM »
So the history of China is one of constantly being in the dark age subsisting with low technology?

Everyone knows that China has been dominated numerous times by smaller countries like USA, UK, France, Japan, Russia but seriously

Austro-Hungary?
Italy?
Germany?
Even Portugal? And Belgium?

Are you telling me that the most populous "nation" on earth can´t come up with its own advanced technology to beat much smaller nations?  What about barbarians who don´t even have their own nation like Turks, Mongols and Manchus but still managed to out-technologied big old China?  I could understand Han ethnocentrism if it is based on economic or military superiority but China getting its ass kicked numerous times is not a reason to celebrate.

It's all about technological superiority.  If an outer space alien race decided to attack earthlings they would only need to bring one ship across the vastness of space, arm their super lasers and start blasting away at cities all while shielding themselves from nuclear bombardment.  This analogy is not far from what happened when the Mongols beat the Chinese in the 13th century except they had to steal Chinese engineers to obtain siege weapons.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2019, 11:40:07 AM »
I have more respect for the Khmer Krom than for the Hoa although both live in Vietnam.  Khmers built their own empire but eventually lose to us so they must now live under our rule.  The ancestors of the Hoa got their ass kicked by the Northern Chinese but instead of re-creating their own nation elsewhere, they migrated to Vietnam like unwanted pests.  Sure, they go around calling themselves Chinese but we Vietnamese know that they are basically stateless cowards with no heritage or history. 

Hoa =/= Chinese. Most Hoa in Vietnam came from Guangdong.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2019, 01:52:13 PM »
I have more respect for the Khmer Krom than for the Hoa although both live in Vietnam.  Khmers built their own empire but eventually lose to us so they must now live under our rule.  The ancestors of the Hoa got their ass kicked by the Northern Chinese but instead of re-creating their own nation elsewhere, they migrated to Vietnam like unwanted pests.  Sure, they go around calling themselves Chinese but we Vietnamese know that they are basically stateless cowards with no heritage or history.
The Hoa did contribute to Vietnam southward expansion though. They were among the first settlers in Khmer Krom. Those that lived near modern Cambodia - South Vietnam border pledged their allegiance to the Khmer king/lord while those lived in Gia Dinh were more on the side of Nguyen lords. But when the Khmer empire got weaker and couldn't guarantee protection to the Hoa that lived close to them, all the Hoa that were loyal to Khmer king/lord switched to Nguyen lords' side.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2019, 04:31:16 PM »
Like I said, they are cowards.

Right before Hong Kong´s handover, the Cantonese had enough money to draw China to a stalemate.  An invading force requires more than 3 to 1 ratio of manpower and equipments to take out a defensive force, especially one that has more reason to fight to protect its homeland.  Hong Kong at that time not only had the money but the technology as well.  That fight never happened, and now average Hong Kong Chinese live in chicken coops.  I am almost certain that Taiwan will go back to China, for the simple reason that the Chinese in Taiwan do not have the courage to create their own nation.







The Hoa did contribute to Vietnam southward expansion though. They were among the first settlers in Khmer Krom. Those that lived near modern Cambodia - South Vietnam border pledged their allegiance to the Khmer king/lord while those lived in Gia Dinh were more on the side of Nguyen lords. But when the Khmer empire got weaker and couldn't guarantee protection to the Hoa that lived close to them, all the Hoa that were loyal to Khmer king/lord switched to Nguyen lords' side.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2019, 07:14:59 PM »
I am almost certain that Taiwan will go back to China, for the simple reason that the Chinese in Taiwan do not have the courage to create their own nation.
I cringe every time a Chinese from Taiwan says that he/she is a Taiwanese. When did the Chinese in Taiwan start to refer themselves as Taiwanese? Its such a fake identity. Their mentality is basically the same with the people from the provinces of mainland China. The only difference is that the Chinese in Taiwan ancestors didn't get to rule over China.

But Taiwan needs no nationalism to maintain its de facto nation-like status. Unless the US & Japan give up on Taiwan, it won't go back to China.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2019, 07:39:50 PM »
It might not have been called that at the time but the concept of ethnocentrism was alive and well to a large degree.  You don't get a nation comprising of 90+ percent Han for its entire history since its earliest days of inception without having that racist edge.
Han didn't even exist as an ethnic term during the Tang dynasty so i don't know where you got that from. If there had been this strong Chinese ethnocentrism like you said, Chinese wouldn't have got ruled over by foreigners like Manchus, Mongols, etc for hundreds of years...

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2019, 09:11:33 PM »
Han didn't even exist as an ethnic term during the Tang dynasty so i don't know where you got that from. If there had been this strong Chinese ethnocentrism like you said, Chinese wouldn't have got ruled over by foreigners like Manchus, Mongols, etc for hundreds of years...

That's because it wasn't called Han chauvinism during that time.  But they were known as the kingdom of something or other like the great Tang.  Or the great Song.  That wasn't a newly invented tradition.  It harkened back to the days of the Han dynasty.

Also going back to what you said about ethnocentrism and not being ruled over.  Those are two totally different concepts.  On the one hand there hasn't been a nation on earth which hasn't been ruled over despite them all having been at one point in time ethnocentric.  On the other hand if the Chinese were completely ethnocentric and only existed as Han without ever so much a glance from invaders then the Chinese would have probably destroyed themselves due to internal strife.  That's the logic behind numerous times when deposed rulers just happily rode off into the distance not caring too much about the sunset on their formerly glorious dynasty.

And I know I'm making it sound a lot simpler than it is but for the moment we need to get out of the complicated head space and think in the bigger picture.  There's the underappreciated notion of China's "caveat emptor" where the invader forgot to do all his homework and went into China thinking that it can be conquered from within, meaning off horseback.  Well that's not how it works.  China is a huge engine, being able to manipulate it means you have either insane amounts of genius, or you have been able to rally the Chinese to a sociopolitical cause.  Unfortunately since the invaders had neither they couldn't hold on to China for very long and in essence they weren't able to change the demographics of China for very long either.  Hence why there remained ethnocentrism all the way up until 21st century China when all that remained were warlords and internal strife.

Now you do have people talking about Han chauvinism, I forgot what the exact terminology of it was in Chinese but it isn't spoken of highly within circles of Chinese, doesn't matter where you come from.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2019, 09:14:55 PM »
I'm sorry if I got off topic but I'm kind of confused as to why Vietnam should be divided.  Is it a communist versus capitalist thing?

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2019, 09:16:52 PM »
So the history of China is one of constantly being in the dark age subsisting with low technology?

Everyone knows that China has been dominated numerous times by smaller countries like USA, UK, France, Japan, Russia but seriously

Austro-Hungary?
Italy?
Germany?
Even Portugal? And Belgium?

Are you telling me that the most populous "nation" on earth can´t come up with its own advanced technology to beat much smaller nations?  What about barbarians who don´t even have their own nation like Turks, Mongols and Manchus but still managed to out-technologied big old China?  I could understand Han ethnocentrism if it is based on economic or military superiority but China getting its ass kicked numerous times is not a reason to celebrate.

It DID develop much more advanced technology but China was never a warmongering nation.  It was always trying to defend itself from barbarian invasions.

Offline AnNamMit

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2019, 09:49:30 PM »
Well there are studies which show that Japanese/Korean are related to each other by such and such a percentage and while that much is known neither is it a stretch when the studies also show Chinese to be related to Japanese/Korean by such and such a percentage.  Is this being boastful?  Not unless you think it is somehow a privilege to be included among them.

Everyone in Asia related to each other by some percentages but to say one related to another would mean closely siblings like the case of Korean and Japanese, both have a big share of a pie or the case of S.Chinese and N.Vietnamese both share DNA similarity in high frequency, though the funny thing here, those S.Chinese refused the fact they are Southern shifted and tried to link themselves to S.Korean or Japanese, a wealthier country to feel proud/superior of themselves. Isn't it laughable and hypocrisy?

I said Chinese are " boastful, often claim to relate to North East Asian" are two separate acts. One is boastful about almost everything; such as think they are center of the world, they are superpower ...etc, two often claim to relate to North East Asian (Korean and Japanese) here.

Offline Gāokējì

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2019, 07:24:31 AM »
Everyone in Asia related to each other by some percentages but to say one related to another would mean closely siblings like the case of Korean and Japanese, both have a big share of a pie or the case of S.Chinese and N.Vietnamese both share DNA similarity in high frequency, though the funny thing here, those S.Chinese refused the fact they are Southern shifted and tried to link themselves to S.Korean or Japanese, a wealthier country to feel proud/superior of themselves. Isn't it laughable and hypocrisy?

I said Chinese are " boastful, often claim to relate to North East Asian" are two separate acts. One is boastful about almost everything; such as think they are center of the world, they are superpower ...etc, two often claim to relate to North East Asian (Korean and Japanese) here.

Unlinking the two claims downplays the amount of boastfulness you emphasized as being important to how people in China identify themselves.  On one hand it would be good to compare yourself to some rich country but that's not necessarily comparing the dna, rather the lifestyle or mentality that would make a country or area successful. 

You're saying that it's not even a trend among those S. Chinese to acknowledge that they are southern shifted if A they recognize that their wealth is comparable in some instances to S. Korea or Japan and B there are different Chinese who try to link to northeast Asian when that's clearly not the case.

I actually think there are Chinese who increasingly recognize that they are southern shifted especially because they are extremely rich and actually make it a highlight of their identity to be southern but also that it's the studies which people read and misinterpret about alignments between north and south.

For example there's a certain part within those studies which generates time of separation paths for each of the ethnic groups which would fairly indicate the case for "sibling" as you've mentioned.  But this is hardly the same as genetic contribution.  It's not like Japanese and Koreans were brothers and then separated into different countries.  Actually their genetic structure comes from the south in events which predate history and over time they've accumulated truly northern elements such as genetic structures from Russians and Siberians.

 
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