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Offline gaden

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2019, 08:28:15 AM »
I'm sorry if I got off topic but I'm kind of confused as to why Vietnam should be divided.  Is it a communist versus capitalist thing?

There are regional differences in culture, dialect and slight differences in genetics.  I think the premise from the OP is that of genetics and (what is that thing called?) pantering?  Others would follow with differences in economics and politics. 

As Asians goes, it evolves into rejection of association with one another and into name calling and mud slinging fight fest.  Pretty much we are all bastards.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2019, 01:11:53 PM »
That wasn't a newly invented tradition.  It harkened back to the days of the Han dynasty.

Unfortunately since the invaders had neither they couldn't hold on to China for very long and in essence they weren't able to change the demographics of China for very long either.  Hence why there remained ethnocentrism all the way up until 21st century China when all that remained were warlords and internal strife.
I don't believe modern day Chinese ethnocentrism could be traced back to Han dynasty. Its like believing oneself to hold the pure bloodline of one's ancestor for thousands of years. Humans don't have long term memories. Even our languages can change in just centuries. And i don't believe in this cultural/demographic assimilation of foreign invaders argument. If you went back to the Manchu ruled China, you would need to have queue hairstyle or else you would be executed. Thats how much political power the Manchus held over ordinary Chinese. Its the ruling elites who imposed their laws over their subjects, not the other way around. And Chinese adopted this queue hairstyle for hundreds of years. This is how Chinese assimilated the Manchus culturally.

Offline ChinaWantsTheEntireMultiverse

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2019, 06:09:52 PM »
I don't believe modern day Chinese ethnocentrism could be traced back to Han dynasty. Its like believing oneself to hold the pure bloodline of one's ancestor for thousands of years. Humans don't have long term memories. Even our languages can change in just centuries. And i don't believe in this cultural/demographic assimilation of foreign invaders argument. If you went back to the Manchu ruled China, you would need to have queue hairstyle or else you would be executed. Thats how much political power the Manchus held over ordinary Chinese. Its the ruling elites who imposed their laws over their subjects, not the other way around. And Chinese adopted this queue hairstyle for hundreds of years. This is how Chinese assimilated the Manchus culturally.

You are beginning to see just how heavy handed it needs to be for a foreign power to maintain dominance in China.  They basically said "Look if you don't adopt this queue, then off with your head."  But obviously it takes more than just this simple law for Han to abide by for you to successfully hold control.  China had this going on multiple times some of the best examples were religion.  There were times when Buddhism was the norm and many Taoist sects were persecuted and other times Taoism was the norm and then Buddhists were persecuted.  In the end there was always something lacking from the conquerors so to speak and they would lose control and China would return back to Han authority and that's where the enthnocentrism comes in because it was always the idea that Han, the non barbarian, had rightful rule and were the true caretakers of the civilization.


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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2019, 09:18:47 PM »
Vietnamese would be richer if we break up into smaller republics.  Northern Vietnam should try to win back territory in Southern China.  Central Vietnamese sail east to claim all of the Palawan.  Southern Vietnamese should teach those annoying Khmers a lesson and deport them all back to India. 



There are regional differences in culture, dialect and slight differences in genetics.  I think the premise from the OP is that of genetics and (what is that thing called?) pantering?  Others would follow with differences in economics and politics. 

As Asians goes, it evolves into rejection of association with one another and into name calling and mud slinging fight fest.  Pretty much we are all bastards.

Offline AnNamMit

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2019, 09:55:36 PM »
Unlinking the two claims downplays the amount of boastfulness you emphasized as being important to how people in China identify themselves.  On one hand it would be good to compare yourself to some rich country but that's not necessarily comparing the dna, rather the lifestyle or mentality that would make a country or area successful. 

You're saying that it's not even a trend among those S. Chinese to acknowledge that they are southern shifted if A they recognize that their wealth is comparable in some instances to S. Korea or Japan and B there are different Chinese who try to link to northeast Asian when that's clearly not the case.

I actually think there are Chinese who increasingly recognize that they are southern shifted especially because they are extremely rich and actually make it a highlight of their identity to be southern but also that it's the studies which people read and misinterpret about alignments between north and south.

For example there's a certain part within those studies which generates time of separation paths for each of the ethnic groups which would fairly indicate the case for "sibling" as you've mentioned.  But this is hardly the same as genetic contribution.  It's not like Japanese and Koreans were brothers and then separated into different countries.  Actually their genetic structure comes from the south in events which predate history and over time they've accumulated truly northern elements such as genetic structures from Russians and Siberians.

As when do you think China as rich as Japanese and S.Korea? Comparing is different with claiming relationship while rejecting facts are plain delusional and ignorant. Malaysian is still wealthier than Chinese at the current economic stage.

I remembered years back, when some dirt poor Northern Vietnamese tried to claim a relationship with Chinese, which angered the Chinese because Chinese perceived those northern Vietnamese as poor, savages while looking up to link themsevles to S.Korean and Japanese.

What also funny is these dirt poor northern Vietnamese thought Chinese see them as siblings, therefore, they looked down on Southern Vietnamese and claim Southern Vietnamese is Cham, Khmer mixed despite the facts they are the poorest.

I find Backy aka Northern Vietnamese and S.Chinese look like the clowns in the circus.

Offline Selurong

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2019, 10:42:43 PM »
As when do you think China as rich as Japanese and S.Korea? Comparing is different with claiming relationship while rejecting facts are plain delusional and ignorant. Malaysian is still wealthier than Chinese at the current economic stage.

I remembered years back, when some dirt poor Northern Vietnamese tried to claim a relationship with Chinese, which angered the Chinese because Chinese perceived those northern Vietnamese as poor, savages while looking up to link themsevles to S.Korean and Japanese.

What also funny is these dirt poor northern Vietnamese thought Chinese see them as siblings, therefore, they looked down on Southern Vietnamese and claim Southern Vietnamese is Cham, Khmer mixed despite the facts they are the poorest.

I find Backy aka Northern Vietnamese and S.Chinese look like the clowns in the circus.
What's even funnier is that the South of China, the place with all the disgusting Austroasiatic and Austronesian admixture is actually richer than the pure Han North!
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Offline Selurong

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2019, 10:44:17 PM »
The richest Chinese province is actually in the South in Guangdong.



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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2019, 10:48:13 PM »
East Asia has more poor people than Southeast Asia and most of those poor people live in China.  The Chinese claim civilizational pride but I see them desperately trying to link themselves to Koreans and Japanese who actually don´t want anything to do with them.   The Koreans and Japanese will be irrelevant soon but their countries are already rich.  China has peaked out and will only become poorer.

What's even funnier is that the South of China, the place with all the disgusting Austroasiatic and Austronesian admixture is actually richer than the pure Han North!

Offline Selurong

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2019, 10:54:18 PM »
East Asia has more poor people than Southeast Asia and most of those poor people live in China.  The Chinese claim civilizational pride but I see them desperately trying to link themselves to Koreans and Japanese who actually don´t want anything to do with them.   The Koreans and Japanese will be irrelevant soon but their countries are already rich.  China has peaked out and will only become poorer.
The future belongs to the South since we are living and expanding while they are dying due to aging and not having any babies.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2019, 10:56:38 PM »
You can´t convince any Chinese.  China has been dominated by Northern invaders for so long that they disregard local history, their real history, to favor anything Northern in origin.  Book burning has long term consequences.

 


Chinese claim 3000 years with literature but their greatest literary works came out of the 14th century with the most recent from the 18th century.  Where is the rest?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Chinese_Novels

The richest Chinese province is actually in the South in Guangdong.



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Offline Selurong

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2019, 11:08:10 PM »
You can´t convince any Chinese.  China has been dominated by Northern invaders for so long that they disregard local history, their real history, to favor anything Northern in origin.  Book burning has long term consequences.

 


Chinese claim 3000 years with literature but their greatest literary works came out of the 14th century with the most recent from the 18th century.  Where is the rest?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Chinese_Novels
Such unfortunate Chinese people.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2019, 11:26:24 PM »
In the end there was always something lacking from the conquerors so to speak and they would lose control and China would return back to Han authority and that's where the enthnocentrism comes in because it was always the idea that Han, the non barbarian, had rightful rule and were the true caretakers of the civilization.
Somehow ethnocentrism arises after hundreds of years of Manchu rule? Why do you leave out what happened in those centuries of Manchu ruled China? Like how many Chinese pledged their loyalty to the Manchu overlords and worked with the Manchus for hundreds of years to put down other Chinese that "rebelled" against the Manchu rule? It seems like the idea of Han ethnocentrism, the non barbarian to rule over China, wasn't appealing back then. It only became more appealing when the Manchus started to lose their gripe on China. Being Han in the 17,18,19th century wasn't good enough to make Chinese people overthrow the Manchus but being Han in the 20th century somehow unified Chinese people to overthrow the Manchus. What kind of ethnocentrism is that?

Offline ChinaWantsTheEntireMultiverse

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2019, 05:24:01 PM »
Somehow ethnocentrism arises after hundreds of years of Manchu rule? Why do you leave out what happened in those centuries of Manchu ruled China? Like how many Chinese pledged their loyalty to the Manchu overlords and worked with the Manchus for hundreds of years to put down other Chinese that "rebelled" against the Manchu rule? It seems like the idea of Han ethnocentrism, the non barbarian to rule over China, wasn't appealing back then. It only became more appealing when the Manchus started to lose their gripe on China. Being Han in the 17,18,19th century wasn't good enough to make Chinese people overthrow the Manchus but being Han in the 20th century somehow unified Chinese people to overthrow the Manchus. What kind of ethnocentrism is that?

That's because the Chinese were being conquered from the physical standpoint.  It's like you've said they were on the verge of getting their heads cut off unless they complied with the orders to follow commands and fall in along with the rest of the Manchus, pigtail queue included.

But it's an interesting set of political dynamics that we are going to necessarily underappreciate because we longer live during that time.  For example we don't know what had compelled the Manchus exactly because given their experience they would have already known that trying to conquer China would have been hell for them, for anybody.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2019, 06:01:27 PM »
That's because the Chinese were being conquered from the physical standpoint.  It's like you've said they were on the verge of getting their heads cut off unless they complied with the orders to follow commands and fall in along with the rest of the Manchus, pigtail queue included.

But it's an interesting set of political dynamics that we are going to necessarily underappreciate because we longer live during that time.  For example we don't know what had compelled the Manchus exactly because given their experience they would have already known that trying to conquer China would have been hell for them, for anybody.
So Chinese ethnocentrism itself can be suppressed for centuries by foreign ruling elites through implementation of harsh punishments for those who disobey the laws of their foreign rulers and rewarding/pardoning those who become loyal to the rulers. The Manchus did end up as ruling over China for about 3 centuries so i don't think China was hell to them that much.

Offline ChinaWantsTheEntireMultiverse

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2019, 06:23:08 PM »
So Chinese ethnocentrism itself can be suppressed for centuries by foreign ruling elites through implementation of harsh punishments for those who disobey the laws of their foreign rulers and rewarding/pardoning those who become loyal to the rulers. The Manchus did end up as ruling over China for about 3 centuries so i don't think China was hell to them that much.

Anything can be suppressed but that doesn't negate the fact of its existence.  Such as a person who is absolutely going to become a rock star.  Sure you might suppress it and say this isn't for you etc, but the rock star nature within the person to be is going to ignore what other people say in the long run and still become a rock star.  And I suspect the same was with the Han Chinese.  Of course that's ethnocentrism for you.  It's when an entire ethnic group insists on being a rock star.  These days it's about the rock band with 5 or 6 band members or boy or girl groups consisting of 30 + members.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2019, 06:29:00 PM »
Anything can be suppressed but that doesn't negate the fact of its existence.  Such as a person who is absolutely going to become a rock star.  Sure you might suppress it and say this isn't for you etc, but the rock star nature within the person to be is going to ignore what other people say in the long run and still become a rock star.  And I suspect the same was with the Han Chinese.  Of course that's ethnocentrism for you.  It's when an entire ethnic group insists on being a rock star.  These days it's about the rock band with 5 or 6 band members or boy or girl groups consisting of 30 + members.
I don't think people would wait for centuries to admit their desires to become a rock stars.

Offline ChinaWantsTheEntireMultiverse

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2019, 06:35:26 PM »
I don't think people would wait for centuries to admit their desires to become a rock stars.

And they shouldn't because a rock star fantasy only appears within the span of a lifetime, but China is not just about a single person's lifetime, its story has spanned for thousands of years already.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2019, 07:09:00 PM »
And they shouldn't because a rock star fantasy only appears within the span of a lifetime, but China is not just about a single person's lifetime, its story has spanned for thousands of years already.
Its a story written by many authors, not one. Each author gave their own spin about their China.

Offline ChinaWantsTheEntireMultiverse

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2019, 08:22:22 PM »
Its a story written by many authors, not one. Each author gave their own spin about their China.

And that's because in the written sense not one single author could have lived to experience the entirety of China, whose story could not be fully told within the pages of just one or a few authors.  Its story spans tens if not hundreds of generations.  What we have to do is look at the various stories the way archaeologists look at different pieces of evidence and construct what I would again say is the bigger picture.

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Re: Vietnam should be divided
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2019, 04:56:06 AM »
And that's because in the written sense not one single author could have lived to experience the entirety of China, whose story could not be fully told within the pages of just one or a few authors.  Its story spans tens if not hundreds of generations.  What we have to do is look at the various stories the way archaeologists look at different pieces of evidence and construct what I would again say is the bigger picture.
I just don't buy this argument that Chinese ethnocentrism dating back from the Han dynasty has always been the main cause that lead to the eventual overthrow of foreign rulers. Because there were simply too many foreign rulers that ended up ruling over China for such long period of time and many Chinese who put down other Chinese in favour of foreign rule. Chinese are more well known to be a bunch of lying self serving backstabbing people than a loyal group of people who fought for their own honour. You may be right that Chinese have been unified under a sociopolitical cause during some great Chinese dynasties and this is what you called the bigger picture.

 

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