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Author Topic: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)  (Read 2598 times)

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Offline Rude Boy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2019, 02:06:36 PM »
But I think it's sad to think that you wouldn't know what generalizations are.  Obviously you are generalizing the formation of Vietnam to the point where they are taking the view against the orthodox of Ming and I am generalizing the formation of Vietnam to the point where they want to take the view of Qing.
The formation of Vietnam was born out of the struggle against the Ming rule. So i named it the Birth of Viet Nam.

Offline Daisy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2019, 02:23:27 PM »
The formation of Vietnam was born out of the struggle against the Ming rule. So i named it the Birth of Viet Nam.

Not really.  You can struggle against many different factions.  There's not one single thing that you struggle against that suddenly gives rise to your creation.  To take this view is tantamount to saying the US was really just born out of independance from England, which is completely wrong.  The US was born out of independance from Europe as a whole.  In fact the situation of Vietnam might not be any different.  Its struggle was against the orthodoxy which didn't just arrive during the Ming.  The orthodoxy of the Han was there since the time of the Han dynasty.  Vietnam had only been added to the dynastic imperial lands and then seceded subsequently because it could only stomach east Asian culture to a point.  Vietnamese culture was more about a rustic lifestyle without all the civilizational trappings of the Han Chinese.  Notice in your beginning quote by some sage character that Vietnamese was espousing the view of the singular, "the way", not this way and that way but only one way.  It's like I said, Vietnamese are a very simplistic people and are happy if foreigners acknowledge them or mistake them as other east Asians from time to time.

Offline Rude Boy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2019, 03:58:39 PM »
Not really.  You can struggle against many different factions.  There's not one single thing that you struggle against that suddenly gives rise to your creation.  To take this view is tantamount to saying the US was really just born out of independance from England, which is completely wrong.  The US was born out of independance from Europe as a whole.  In fact the situation of Vietnam might not be any different.  Its struggle was against the orthodoxy which didn't just arrive during the Ming.  The orthodoxy of the Han was there since the time of the Han dynasty.  Vietnam had only been added to the dynastic imperial lands and then seceded subsequently because it could only stomach east Asian culture to a point.  Vietnamese culture was more about a rustic lifestyle without all the civilizational trappings of the Han Chinese.  Notice in your beginning quote by some sage character that Vietnamese was espousing the view of the singular, "the way", not this way and that way but only one way.  It's like I said, Vietnamese are a very simplistic people and are happy if foreigners acknowledge them or mistake them as other east Asians from time to time.

If there had been no struggle against Ming rule, there would be no independent nation that would become today Vietnam. Its easy logic. The orthodoxy of Han Chinese was imposed on Vietnam the most during Ming occupation. Its during this time that the struggle was more evident than in comparison to Han or Tang ruled Northern Vienam. And the struggles against such orthodoxy imposed during Ming occupation gave rise to Dai Viet kingdom, Le dynasty and Dai Viet Su Ki Toan Thu, the most well written historical record of Vietnam.

Offline Daisy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2019, 04:05:01 PM »
If there had been no struggle against Ming rule, there would be no independent nation that would become today Vietnam. Its easy logic. The orthodoxy of Han Chinese was imposed on Vietnam the most during Ming occupation. And the struggles against such orthodoxy gave rise to Dai Viet kingdom, Le dynasty and Dai Viet Su Ki Toan Thu, the most well written historical record of Vietnam.

No I think if there was no Qing there would be no Vietnam.  Vietnam wanted to take the view of the Qing even though Qing did not want to take the view of Vietnam.

Offline Rude Boy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2019, 04:08:36 PM »
No I think if there was no Qing there would be no Vietnam.  Vietnam wanted to take the view of the Qing even though Qing did not want to take the view of Vietnam.
Ok you win. I guess i should have used the phrase "the beginning of Le dynasty" than "the birth of Viet Nam" as a title for the historical texts i posted. You have a point that "Viet Nam" has only existed from Qing period.

Offline Daisy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2019, 04:14:20 PM »
Ok you win. I guess i should have used the phrase "the beginning of Le dynasty" than "the birth of Viet Nam" as a title for the historical texts i posted. You have a point that "Viet Nam" has only existed from Qing period.

Oh, that is so sad.

Offline Rude Boy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2019, 04:17:56 PM »
Oh that is so sad.
I just wanted to use the phrase "the birth of Viet Nam" as a title so that it would make my long texts sound more attractive to readers. But then you remind me that i have to stick with whats right within the historical contexts. The people who fought against Ming rule didn't think that they were fighting for modern nation called Vietnam. They fought for Le Loi and his cause. Modern nationalism didn't exist back then but loyalty to monarchy.

Offline Daisy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2019, 04:24:42 PM »
I just wanted to use the phrase "the birth of Viet Nam" as a title so that it would make my long texts sound more attractive to readers. But then i have to stick with whats right within the historical contexts. The people who fought against Ming rule didn't think that they were fighting for modern nation called Vietnam. They fought for Le Loi and his cause.  Modern nationalism didn't exist back then but loyalty to monarchy.

One hand there has always been a "Vietnam" at the core, in terms of character/principles and culture.  This is the one that is completely detached from Han China.  It speaks of days of independent glory and dominance of the southern frontier where Han dare not go.  On the other there is a Vietnam that is sufficiently modern in its identity to comprise of the whole of Vietnam and not just the original founders but it speaks of following the view of Qing.

Yes I get it now.  Vietnamese have too much shame.

Offline Rude Boy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2019, 04:39:36 PM »
One hand there has always been a "Vietnam" at the core, in terms of character/principles and culture.  This is the one that is completely detached from Han China.  It speaks of days of independent glory and dominance of the southern frontier where Han dare not go.  On the other there is a Vietnam that is sufficiently modern in its identity to comprise of the whole of Vietnam and not just the original founders but it speaks of following the view of Qing.

Yes I get it now.  You have too much shame.
So you want me to talk about history of medieval North Vietnam (Le, Mac, Trinh - Nguyen) or modern Vietnam? Sorry this thread is about Lam Son uprising. Please dont be a troll because i want good discussions.

Offline Daisy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2019, 04:42:20 PM »
So you want me to talk about history of medieval North Vietnam or modern Vietnam? Sorry this thread is about Lam Son uprising.

Sorry there is nothing more you could tell me.

Please consolidate your topics into seven.  It would be more interesting if you could do it like this:

http://vietrealm.com/index.php?topic=35177.msg100392;topicseen#new

Offline Rude Boy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2019, 04:46:19 PM »
Sorry there is nothing more you could tell me.
Why do you have always to be a troll? You made a lot more contributions many discussions in the past but now you are like this. I checked history of your posts already. What changed you so much?

And its not like you are being a good troll to be honest since  you just make people feel tired seeing your post. I don't feel angry, frustrated, provoked or any negative feeling you are trying to make me feel. I want to engage with you in a more honest discussion but you make me feel less enthusiastic responding to you.

Offline Daisy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2019, 04:51:00 PM »
Why do you have always to be a troll? You made a lot more contributions many discussions in the past but now you are like this. I checked history of your posts already. What changed you so much?

Um, I'm always like this what on earth are you smoking?

Offline Rude Boy

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Re: Lam Sơn uprising (1418-1427)
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2019, 04:56:27 PM »
Um, I'm always like this what on earth are you smoking?
im tired.

 
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