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Offline Rude Boy

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The separation between Viet and Muong
« on: June 22, 2019, 03:04:15 PM »
Dân tộc Mường có từ bao giờ?
Cho đến nay, dường như không một ai trong giới nghiên cứu phủ nhận người Việt Cổ là tổ tiên trực tiếp của người Mường. Nói một cách khác, người Mường hôm nay và người Kinh (Việt hiện đại) hiện nay, là anh em sinh đôi, cùng một nguồn cội: Người Việt Cổ.
Thế nhưng, những người con cháu trực tiếp tách ra khỏi tổ tiên của họ từ bao giờ để hình thành nên một tên Mường với tư cách là một dân tộc độc lập, thì cho đến thời điểm này, vẫn là một vấn đề chưa được giải quyết trọn vẹn, dẫu rằng, những công trình nghiên cứu, được tiếp cận từ lịch sử, dân tộc học lịch sử và ngôn ngữ học lịch sử đã cố công tìm hiểu, nhưng vẫn chưa tìm được thời điểm thỏa đáng.

Nhà sử học lão thành đã quá cố Nguyễn Lương Bích đã có một luận văn chi tiết về vấn đề này từ những năm 70 của thế kỷ trước. Ông cho rằng, tên gọi Mường xuất hiện sớm nhất cũng chỉ từ cuối thế kỷ 19, đầu thế kỷ 20, để chỉ các khu vực hành chính của những địa phương miền núi, tương đương với một châu, một huyện, hay một xã lớn, không có danh từ “Mường” để chỉ người hoặc tộc người.

Dường như ông cũng không thừa nhận có một thời điểm tách ra của người Mường khỏi khối Việt – Mường. Ông khẳng định, trong lịch sử Việt Nam, người Mường và người Việt chỉ là một dân tộc. Đó là dân tộc Việt miền núi và dân tộc Việt đồng bằng. Từ Mường, hay “Sự tách biệt thành dân tộc Mường có thể chỉ là một quy định hành chính theo chính sách chia để trị của thực dân  Pháp, cách ngày nay chưa đầy một trăm năm (1).

Cũng có ý kiến cho rằng, người Mường tách ra thành dân tộc, có thể từ thế kỷ 10, căn cứ vào mấy tiếng Cử Long man, mà các thời Đinh – Tiền Lê – Lý đã dùng để chỉ người Cử Long. Cử Long sau này là Cổ Lũng (nay là huyện Cẩm Thủy, Thanh Hóa), quê hương của Hà Thọ Tường, người đã giúp sức vào việc trung hưng nhà Lê, được phong chức Tứ Đô, tước Thụy Quận Công. Ý kiến này lý giải rằng, thời Đinh, Tiền Lê, Lý gọi người Cử Long là Cử Long Man, có nghĩa coi người Cử Long là một dân tộc Man di, một dân tộc thiểu số, không phải dân tộc Việt.

Thực ra, đây không thể là câu để tìm thời điểm tách ra của người Mường khỏi khối Việt – Mường vì chỉ giản đơn rằng “Man”, “Mãnh” hay “Mang” đều là phiên âm của chữ Hán, thành Mường trong các thư tịch cổ Việt Nam. Như thế, người Thái, người Mường….đều có thể là “Man”. Đó là chưa kể có sự nhầm lẫn nào chăng giữa “âm” và “nghĩa”, giữa địa danh và tộc người.

Mặc dù vậy, thế kỉ 10, được coi như một loại ý kiến được đa số bàn luận và xem đó như một niên điểm tách ra giữa người Mường và người Việt Mường chung.

Giáo sư sử học tài danh đã quá cố Trần Quốc Vượng, dường như nghiêng theo quan điểm này. Bằng cách tiếp cận từ lịch sử, văn hóa và văn minh, luận văn “Việt Nam thế kỷ X – Văn hóa, văn minh thể X – Những vấn đề lịch sử” của ông đã cho rằng, thời điểm thích hợp nhất của sự tách ra của hai dân tộc là thế kỷ X – thế kỷ bản lề của dân tộc (2)

Tiếp cận từ ngôn ngữ học lịch sử, Giáo sư Hà Văn Tấn và sau này là Hà Văn Tấn, Phạm Đức Dương (3) đã đưa ra một lược đồ,  mà trong đó thể hiện các chặng mốc, nhưng không được xác định thời gian cụ thể, như sau:

*Những từ và cụm từ trong dấu ngoặc đơn là tác giả thêm vào lược đồ để độc giả dễ theo dõi

Năm 1991, dẫu không khẳng định trực tiếp, nhưng bằng cách gián tiếp và để bổ sung cho lược đồ của mình, Giáo sư Hà Văn Tấn đã viết: “Văn hóa Đông Sơn tồn tại ở miền Bắc Việt Nam từ giữa thiên niên kỷ I trước Công nguyên (2500 năm cách ngày nay TG). Có thể phần lớn cư dân Đông Sơn còn nói ngôn ngữ Việt – Mường chung” (4)

Tôi hiểu cách diễn đạt này là, thế kỷ 2 sau Công nguyên, cư dân Đông Sơn – hay Việt – Mường còn nói ngôn ngữ chung là Việt – Mường, thì phải sau đó vài thế kỷ, khoảng thế kỷ 8 sau công nguyên, Việt và Mường mới được tách ra khỏi khối Việt Mường chung.

Sự diễn giải trên đây của tôi, qua ý kiến của Giáo sư Hà Văn Tấn, đồng thời cũng là ý kiến của nhà ngôn ngữ học Nguyễn Văn Tài rằng, tiếng Việt và tiếng Mường tách nhau khoảng thế kỷ 7 hoặc 8 sau công nguyên (5).

Tôi cho rằng, các nhà nghiên cứu lịch sử luôn bị ám ảnh của quá trình đồng hóa 1000 năm thuộc Bắc, nên luôn coi thời Bắc thuộc là sự hoàn tất của quá trình Hán hóa. Những người Việt đã bị Hán hóa còn ở lại vùng đồng bằng để rồi sau khi giành được độc lập, với chiến thắng của Ngô Vương Quyền năm 938, và sự phục hưng của văn minh Đại Việt thời Lý – Trần, đã trở thành người Việt (Kinh), còn một bộ phận của người Việt cổ, bị dồn đẩy lên miền núi, trở thành người Mường. Chứng tích vật chất của khảo cổ học và thực tiễn sinh động của sức sống Việt, không ủng hộ cho quá trình Hán hóa của ngoại bang, theo đó, không thể lấy thế kỷ 10 như là một thời điểm chia tách của dân tộc Mường ra khỏi khối Việt - Mường chung. Còn về mặt ngôn ngữ, chính vì thiếu chứng cứ về các lớp từ vựng, luôn có hiện tượng chồng xếp ngôn ngữ, nên hai giáo sư Hà Văn Tấn và Phạm Đức Dương đã bỏ ngỏ niên điểm cụ thể của sự chia tách nêu trên, theo đó, cuối thời Bắc thuộc chỉ được coi như một gợi ý, mang tính giả thiết công tác.

Còn dưới góc nhìn vật thể lấy lên từ khảo cổ học, tôi thấy đến thời Lý, mộ táng Mường và Việt (Kinh) còn giống nhau đến mức kỳ lạ về cấu trúc và táng thức. Vương  triều Lý luôn lấy rừng làm nơi gửi gắm phần thân xác của Hoàng gia, theo đó, ngôi mộ Lê Lan Xuân, Thứ phi của Vua Lý Thần Tông cũng tìm thấy ở rừng Gò Lăng Cấm, Hương Nộn, Tam Nông, (Phú Thọ) như là nguyên mẫu, còn ngôi mộ tìm thấy ở Bãi Cời, xã Hùng Sơn, Lương Sơn (Hòa Bình) -  hiện nay là không gian của văn hóa Mường - như một bản sao, xét trên cấu trúc, táng thức và đặc biệt là đồ tùy táng, mang đậm chất cung đình, hoàng tộc.

Đến thời Trần, cái gọi là mộ táng Mường tìm thấy ở khu B Đồng Thếch, huyện Kim Bôi (Hòa Bình) giống hệt những mộ táng tìm thấy ở quanh Hà Nội hiện nay [(Phú Lương, (Thanh Trì), Phú Minh, (Từ Liêm)…)]. Đó là than trải lót, là quách gỗ hình cũi, là lon sành lát nền, là quan tài hình thuyền, là tục hỏa táng, là đồ tùy táng chôn theo…..v..v và v..v. Sự tương đồng về táng thức cho ta nhận ra, quan niệm về “cõi chết” về “ngôi nhà” cho người quá cố, không có sự khác  biệt giữa hai dân tộc Việt – Mường.

Chỉ đến giữa thế kỷ 15, mộ táng Mường mới thấy sự khác biệt. Đó là sự khác biệt so với cấu trúc và táng thức của chính chúng, ở nửa đầu thế kỷ 15 trở về trước và so với mộ táng ở vùng xuôi đương thời. Tôi cho đây là bản lề, là thời điểm chia tách của người Mường khỏi khối Việt – Mường chung. Có lẽ cũng vì  thế mà Lê Lợi đã không hề bị mặc cảm là một “người thiểu số”, đã đứng lên phất cờ khởi nghĩa giải phóng dân tộc và trấn hưng đất nước. Có lẽ cũng vì thế, mà Triều Lê và Lê Trung Hưng giành quá nhiều đặc quyền với Tù trưởng Mường, chỉ đến khi Minh Mạng, với cải cách hành chính của mình, mới giảm được đặc quyền của Tù trưởng Mường. Đây là một chuyên đề cũng khá lý thú, xin được bàn đến ở bài viết sau.

Như vậy là, bằng tài liệu mộ táng, tôi đã cho thời điểm chia tách dân tộc Mường ra khỏi khối Việt – Mường chung là giữa thế kỷ 15. Đó là một quá trình diễn ra từ từ, bắt đầu từ thời Lý, Trần, để đến giữa thế kỷ 15, có đủ điều kiện để chia tách. Quan điểm cơ bản này, tôi đã từng bảo vệ thành công trước hội đồng luận án tiến sĩ cấp nhà nước, với nhiều giáo sư được lược nhắc trong bài viết này, là thành viên. Tuy nhiên, trên đây chỉ là ý khái quát, đã được rút gọn, mong sẽ có dịp trình bày kỹ lưỡng hơn.

Source:
http://thegioidisan.vn/vi/dan-toc-muong-co-tu-bao-gio.html
_______________________________________ ________________________

My comment:

I definitely think that the first separation between the Viet - Muong in Northern Vietnam happened somewhere from Late Tang - early Song period. The term "Muong" as the French labelled it were the much less sinicized Vietic speaking people living in the highlands of Northern Vietnam. But i'd argue that the "Muong" here have always assimilated into the mainstream Viet population in the lowlands of Northern Vietnam for centuries or even a millennia. There is no definite time point for the "Muong" to not become the "Viet". Even today we still see ethnic minorities becoming vietnamized. So if people went back to the past, they would see a Northern Vietnam that was not as culturally and linguistically homogenous (sinicized) as it is today. The inhabitants of Northern Vietnam from 10th to 15th century were definitely multilingual and had different cultures / religious beliefs. Those much less sinicized people would have been the majority in Northern Vietnam from 10th to 15th century and would be labeled by the French in the 19th century as "Muong".

Offline Rude Boy

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2019, 04:15:36 PM »
When did Muong ethnicity arise?

Until now, it seems that everyone in Vietnamese academics acknowledge that the proto Vietic people are the direct ancestors of the Muong people. In other words, today's Muong people and Kinh people (modern Vietnamese) are twin brothers, coming from same ancestors: the proto Vietic people.
But the question of how & when the Muong people departed from their proto Vietic ancestors to form an independent ethnicity has not yet been answered. There has been alot of studies about Muong people from various fields like history, ethnography, linguistics but  a precise time for the seperation of Muong people from their proto Vietic ancestors is not yet clear. 

Offline Winner

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2019, 10:09:59 PM »
Give me a break, whoever wrote article above does not know a thing or try to avoid sensitive topic.

As said the Dai Viet Su Ky wrote, the Ly Dynasty considered Trai people aka Muong ancestors as barbarians. The Trai rose to challenge the imperial so Ly dispatched an army to subjugate these people brutally killed them and brought them to their knees. That was how they became Vietnamese. They were not the founder of Viet dynasties.

Same to those Tai of North West of Vietnam, they often attacked Dai Viet, the Ly countered attack and eventually conquered part of the Nan Zhao kingdom, Ly army almost capture their capital now is Yunnan, they sought for help from the Song, the Song saved their capital.

During the Tran Dynasty, these Tai continue attack Dai Viet, the imperial dispatched troops to put them in place and make them contribute to Dai Viet.

Later Le dynasty, the Tai challenged the Le, and they were made contribute state again.

Read the Dai Viet Su Ky toan thu. Dont read scrap from commie modern historian. They are know for fabricating the history to favor the Tai and Muong.
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Offline Rude Boy

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2019, 12:34:03 AM »
Give me a break, whoever wrote article above does not know a thing or try to avoid sensitive topic.

As said the Dai Viet Su Ky wrote, the Ly Dynasty considered Trai people aka Muong ancestors as barbarians. The Trai rose to challenge the imperial so Ly dispatched an army to subjugate these people brutally killed them and brought them to their knees. That was how they became Vietnamese. They were not the founder of Viet dynasties.

Same to those Tai of North West of Vietnam, they often attacked Dai Viet, the Ly countered attack and eventually conquered part of the Nan Zhao kingdom, Ly army almost capture their capital now is Yunnan, they sought for help from the Song, the Song saved their capital.

During the Tran Dynasty, these Tai continue attack Dai Viet, the imperial dispatched troops to put them in place and make them contribute to Dai Viet.

Later Le dynasty, the Tai challenged the Le, and they were made contribute state again.

Read the Dai Viet Su Ky toan thu. Dont read scrap from commie modern historian. They are know for fabricating the history to favor the Tai and Muong.
Le Loi was from mountainous Thanh Hoa. The Muong (aka one of many ethnics that were called the Trai in the past) were the supporters of Lam Son uprising. Le Loi is actually a Muong sounding name, don't you think? But of course i don't believe that Le Loi is a 100% culturally Trai person considering of how he became an emperor. Why modern Vietnamese language has Muong influence must be due to a great deal of Muong assimilation after 15th century. Muong are known to inhabit mountainous provinces like Phu Tho, Hoa Binh and Ninh Binh.
According to DVSKTT, Kinh lo people were written to be nation traitors for having been Ming collaborators, so don't always trust DVSKTT 100% since it was written to legitimise to rule of Le emperors over immigrants from Ming empire (Ngo people) and various non sinicized ethnics that inhabited Northern Vietnam at that time. But one thing that can be inferred from reading DVSKTT is that Northern Vietnam in the 15th century was not as culturally and linguistically homogenous as it is today. And it was not a peaceful place either.

Offline Winner

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2019, 09:30:29 AM »
said what....!where did you hear Le Loi is Muong or half mixed? You don't seem to know anything about history Vietnam, as expected you are like many members in this forum does not have much knowledge of Vietnamese history.

Le Loi is not Muong, nowhere in the DVSKTT claimed Le Loi was Muong, or half mixed. Nowhere in DVSKTT written Kinh was traitor....etc.

Le Loi was said to be Muong because one of modern historian said that but what he said has no evidence whats over.

Le Loi is Kinh, his 5th ancestor was also Kinh immigrant to Thanh Hoa.


Lê Lợi có phải là người Mường?
https://www.tienphong.vn/van-hoa/le-loi-co-phai-la-nguoi-muong-111212.tpo

Quote
Lê Mỗi (bố của Lê Hối, tằng tổ của Lê Lợi) là người ở trang Bái Đô – một vùng đất qua tìm hiểu của chúng tôi thì chưa bao giờ có người Mường ở.

Muong, Tai were both absorbed into Kinh by conquests. Same with Cham and Khmer. The difference is that they were absorbed before Cham and Khmer. That's it.

Trai people history under Ly dynasty
Quote
Sự khác biệt giữa dân ở “kinh” với dân “trại” có thể được phát hiện qua lịch sử chinh chiến của hai đời vua đầu triều Lý.

– Năm 1011: đem sáu quân đánh man Cử Long ở Ái châu (thuộc Thanh Hóa nay).

– Năm 1012: vua thân đi đánh Diễn châu (thuộc Nghệ An nay) vì người ở đấy không theo giáo hóa, ngu bạo làm càn, tàn ngược chúng dân…Cuối năm này, bắt người Man và hơn 10.000 con ngựa tại châu Vị Long (thuộc Tuyên Quang nay)

– Năm 1013: vua thân đi đánh châu Vị Long do dân châu hùa theo người Man làm phản. Thủ lĩnh Hà Án Tuấn cùng bộ thuộc trốn vào rừng núi.

– Năm 1014: Dực Thánh vương chống người Man xâm nhập ở châu Bình Lâm (thuộc Tuyên Quang nay), chém hàng vạn người.

– Năm 1015: Vũ Đức vương và Dực Thánh vương đánh người Man ở Vị Long, Đô Kim, Thường Tân, Bình Nguyên (thuộc Tuyên Quang nay); bắt được Hà Án Tuấn, chém bêu đầu ở chợ.

– Năm 1020: Khai Thiên vương và Đào Thạc Phụ đánh Chiêm ở trại Bố Chính, chém tướng giặc Bố Linh tại núi Long Tỵ (nay thuộc Quảng Bình).

– Năm 1022: Dực Thánh vương đánh Đại Nguyên Lịch, thâm nhập trấn Như Hồng thuộc Tống.

– Năm 1024: Khai Thiên vương đánh Phong Châu, Khai Quốc vương đánh châu Đô Kim.

– Năm 1025: lập trại Định Phiên ở phía nam Hoan Châu (khoảng Hà Tĩnh nay)

– Năm 1026: Khai Thiên vương đánh giặc ở Diễn Châu.

– Năm 1027: Khai Thiên vương đánh châu Thất Nguyên, Đông Chinh vương đánh châu Văn (nay thuộc Lạng Sơn).

– Năm 1028: vua mới Thái tông đánh phủ Trường Yên (Ninh Bình nay) do Khai Quốc Vương trấn trị làm phản.

– Năm 1029: đánh giáp Đãn Nãi ở châu Ái.

– Năm 1031: vua thân đi đánh châu Hoan.

– Năm 1033: vua thân đi đánh châu Định Nguyên, sau đó là châu Trệ Nguyên.

– Năm 1035: vua thân đi đánh châu Ái.

– Năm 1036: đặt hành dinh ở châu Hoan, đổi tên thành châu Nghệ An.

– Năm 1037: vua đánh đạo Lâm Tây, Khai Hoàng vương đánh Đô Kim, Thường Tân, Bình Nguyên. Dựng hơn 50 kho tàng thuộc Nghệ An.

– Năm 1039: vua đi đánh Nùng Tồn Phúc.

– Năm 1041: cho Uy Minh hầu Nhật Quang làm Tri châu Nghệ An. Đánh bắt được Nùng Trí Cao.

– Năm 1042: Khai Hoàng vương đánh châu Văn.

– Năm 1043: Khai Hoàng vương đánh châu Ái, Phụng Càn vương đánh châu Văn. Đào Xử Trung dẹp giặc biển Chiêm Thành.

– Năm 1044: vua thân chinh Chiêm Thành, chém vua Chiêm Sạ Đẩu tại trận. Trên đường về, Vua ban tiết việt và gia tước vương cho Trấn thủ Nghệ An Nhật Quang.

– Năm 1048: Phùng Trí Năng đánh Ai Lao, Quách Thịnh Dật đánh động Vật Ác của Nùng Trí Cao.

– Năm 1050: dẹp loạn ở Vật Dương.

– Năm 1051: Thánh tông lên ngôi, đặt quốc hiệu là Đại Việt.

Took the Ly 40 years to stabilize Thanh Hoa by conquest.
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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2019, 11:53:05 AM »
Le Loi is Kinh, his 5th ancestor was also Kinh immigrant to Thanh Hoa.

Lê Lợi có phải là người Mường?
https://www.tienphong.vn/van-hoa/le-loi-co-phai-la-nguoi-muong-111212.tpo

Muong, Tai were both absorbed into Kinh by conquests. Same with Cham and Khmer. The difference is that they were absorbed before Cham and Khmer. That's it.
You are looking at 15th century Northern Vietnam as a politically Kinh dominated region where distinct borders between Kinh and other ethnic minorities were already established. It wasn't. It was not as culturally and linguistically homogenous as it is today. Northern Vietnam in the 15th century was brutal, chaotic and a politically divided place. In the 17th century, you can clearly see the border between Trinh & Nguyen lords at Gianh River in Quang Binh but in the 15th century, the border between various military factions that were made up of many multilingual but culturally distinct ethnics in Northern Vietnam is much more blurry. If you went back to the 15th century Northern Vietnam and wanted to form a strong military faction, you must have the support of Thai ethnic leader from Son La, Muong ethnic leader from Thanh Hoa, Kinh leader from Ha Noi etc,...

A Thai ethnic leader from Sơn La was a supporter of Lam Son uprising
https://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2010/09/07/le-lợi-and-the-black-robed-emperor/
Mountainous areas like Son La wasn't a politically Kinh dominated region like it is today. Le Loi had Kinh ancestor and was a military man but the supporters of Lam Son uprising were of many non sinicized ethnics.

Kinh lộ people collaboration with the Ming
https://nghiencuulichsu.com/2017/06/12/nguoi-viet-hop-tac-voi-quan-minh/

20 years of Ming occupation is a long time, don't you think? What happened in those 20 years that lead up to the anti Ming Lam Son uprising? Was it a conflict of those became dissatisfied with the Ming rule vs those who benefited from Ming rule?

If you think about how politics works, its more about interest of a group of peoples vs interest of other group of peoples more than a simple ethnic conflict. Lam Son uprising isn't something that people should label as Vietnamese vs Chinese but as anti Ming rule group of peoples vs pro Ming rule group of peoples. And the winners were the Kinh who were dissatisfied with Ming rule and leaders of many ethnic minorities groups. The Kinh were the earlier inhabitants of Northern Vietnam and had the knowledge of the various peoples that inhabited that place, the Ming officials that got sent down to rule over Northern Vietnam  didn't have that kind of knowledge and its their ignorance of the place and the peoples of Northern Vietnam that led to their downfall.

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2019, 01:13:00 PM »
What point are you trying to make? Le Loi is Muong despite no evidence? Are you saying Kinh Lo people is Kinh people? The betrayal, the Muong is liberator?

My point is simple, both Muong and Thai are not Kinh at start. They were absorbed into Kinh domain by conquests.
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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2019, 01:44:39 PM »
What point are you trying to make? Le Loi is Muong despite no evidence? Are you saying Kinh Lo people is Kinh people? The betrayal, the Muong is liberator?

My point is simple, both Muong and Thai are not Kinh at start. They were absorbed into Kinh domain by conquests.
You suggested that a Kinh dominated Northern Vietnam in 15th century but i don't agree with that. Kinh only dominated the lowlands of Red River Delta and probably coastal Thanh Hoa. The staring point for Kinh political dominance over other various ethnics that inhabited Northern Vietnam is after 15th century. Thats why you have DVSKTT written in the 15th century. You want an independent Kinh centric history for Vietnamese but an independent Kinh centric history only works after 15th century and not before that.

Kinh lo people were no doubt the original Kinh people. 20 years of Ming occupation is a long time. Most of the Kinh lo people were just commoners who only looked after themselves and didn't care much about who ruled over them.

And there was no such thing as "liberation" from Ming rule. Thats total propaganda from those who were anti Ming. Politics isn't simply a dominance of an ethnic group over another ethnic group, its broader than that. People can be from various ethnic backgrounds but still have the same political interest.

Just put yourself in the shoes of Le Loi, how would you be able to form your military faction in Northern Vietnam when the urban areas were mostly under Ming rule?

I don't believe that Le Loi was 100% culturally Muong since the guy became the emperor of Dai Viet himself but there is definitely a certain "redneck" appeal to his character that he was able to rally various non sinicized ethnics to fight for his cause. I'd imagine him to be a figure like Vaas of Far Cry 3. A no BS military man who had the experience of ruling over a group of peoples who were culturally different from him and got respected by those different peoples.

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2019, 04:01:50 PM »
I have no idea what you are trying to say. Northern Vietnam at which point you trying to say? It was expanding under different dynasty. If you said at 15th century under Le Thanh Tong reign then here is it.



Quote
Kinh lo people were no doubt the original Kinh people. 20 years of Ming occupation is a long time. Most of the Kinh lo people were just commoners who only looked after themselves and didn't care much about who ruled over them.

I don't think you got any idea of the word "Kinh Lo", it is the place, is not the people call "Kinh Lo". Kinh Lo people means people live under that place, they are Kinh people of course.

They did not support Lam Son uprising, there were political reasons behind that. You need to go back before Ming invasion. The Ho came to power but did not gain support from the Tran loyalist thus Kinh people are divided, the Tran loyalist supported the Ming, it was them sought for the Ming help. When the Ming defeated the Ho. The people live in Kinh Lo does not put up as much as resistance because they did not see much of gain or being oppressed by Ming.

Le Loi born in Thanh Hoa whose parent are Kinh. He gained support largely from the Muong people because Thanh Hoa, Nghe An were largely populated by Muong. Both Thanh Hoa and Nghe An were brought to control under Ly Dynasty which was hundred years before the raise of Lam Son. Which means it already incorporated under Dai Viet territory for hundreds years already. Le Loi family had gain much influenced on people live in Thanh Hoa. That is similar to the Nguyen who asserted influenced under the Khmer and Hoa ethnic in Southern Vietnam to fight gainst Trinh force in the North.

I don't know what are you trying to say.

Summary:
1. Le Loi is not Muong.
2. Muong and Tai territories were incorporated in Dai Viet territory under Ly and Tran dynasty.
3. Kinh Lo people means the people live in the area called Kinh Lo, of course most are Kinh people. Does not mean Kinh Lo = Kinh. Kinh Lo is a place, Kinh is identity.
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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2019, 05:01:37 PM »
I have no idea what you are trying to say. Northern Vietnam at which point you trying to say? It was expanding under different dynasty. If you said at 15th century under Le Thanh Tong reign then here is it.
Vietnam during Tran dynasty already had Kinh settlers in Thua Thien - Hue area. But what i was talking about was the core population. It was only concentrated mostly in Northern Vietnam (north of Nghe An) in the 15th century. Thats where the politics happen. The Kinh population in south of Nghe An has practically no role in the politics of Vietnam before the 15th century. Northern Vietnam demographics recorded by a Ming official in 1408: 3.120.000 people and 2.087.500 barbarians. A part of these 2.087.500 non sinicized ethnic minorities people supported Lam Son uprising.

I already gave you a link of a blog to show how Le Loi got support from Thai ethnic leader from Son La.
https://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2010/09/07/le-lợi-and-the-black-robed-emperor/
Lê Lai (original name: Nguyễn Thân) was a Muong ethnic
https://www.maxreading.com/sach-hay/nhan-vat-lich-su-viet-nam/le-lai-8869.html
Lê Cố is a Thai ethnic that followed Le Loi
https://hopluu.net/a991/nhung-nguoi-xuong-dong-truoc-nhom-muong-thai-lam-son
Nguyen Trai and Tran Nguyen Han are confirmed Kinh lo people.

Look even after Later Le having pacified the Tai, they were still pretty much left alone to be autonomous. You overestimated the ruling power of past Vietnamese dynasties. Pacification =/= assimilation. Northern Vietnam was still ethnically heterogeneous in the 15th century. There was no such thing as Kinh dominated Northern Vietnam in the 15th century. Muong & Tai still exist as a culturally distinct ethnic groups in 15th century. The Kinh population at that time only concentrated in the urban areas of the lowlands Red River Delta and coastal Thanh Hoa.

When the Ming defeated the Ho. The people live in Kinh Lo does not put up as much as resistance because they did not see much of gain or being oppressed by Ming.
There was collaboration between a large part of Kinh lo population and Ming forces to overthrow Ho dynasty. DVSKTT labelled many of them as nation traitors. It doesn't mean that the majority of Kinh people supported the Ming. It simply means that after having overthrown the Ho dynasty, many Kinh people in the urban areas of Red River Delta simply supported the Ming to rule over Northern Vietnam. Later on you have people who became dissatisfied with Ming rule like Nguyen Trai, Tran Nguyen Han that sought out Le Loi - a military man who was ruling over other different ethnic - the Muong.

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2019, 07:46:17 PM »
I have hard time to understand your argument. I already said it right, there is no such thing as pure Viet. Kinh identity merge from conquest and assimilation. The founder of early dynasties has their root came from coastal China where it is in Fujian now such as Tran, Ly . The Tai and Muong and other natives ethnics were brought under control by conquests much like the Cham and Khmer. Later being absorbed and assimilated. That is why you see modern Vietnamese has diverse physical appearance ranging from Austronesian to Tai to Mongoloid to Aboriginal Khmer. The people has not been assimilated yet still retain as ethnic minorities to this day with sinking population.

 
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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2019, 01:20:14 AM »
I have hard time to understand your argument. I already said it right, there is no such thing as pure Viet. Kinh identity merge from conquest and assimilation. The founder of early dynasties has their root came from coastal China where it is in Fujian now such as Tran, Ly . The Tai and Muong and other natives ethnics were brought under control by conquests much like the Cham and Khmer. Later being absorbed and assimilated. That is why you see modern Vietnamese has diverse physical appearance ranging from Austronesian to Tai to Mongoloid to Aboriginal Khmer. The people has not been assimilated yet still retain as ethnic minorities to this day with sinking population.
The assimilation of Muong & Tai happened after 15th century. Modern Vietnamese language is a result of Muong assimilation. If the Tai and Muong and other natives ethnics had been assimilated during the Ly & Tran, there would have not been Lam Son uprising and modern Vietnamese language would be classified as another Sinitic language. If you read DVSKTT then you can see that many leaders of the native ethnics had a great deal of autonomy (like the Tai in northwest Vietnam during Later Le).

How the Muong in Thanh Hoa got brought into the domain of Dai Viet:
Vùng Lam Sơn là đất Mường - Việt cổ. Vào khoảng thế kỷ X, làng Cham đã có mặt với những ngôi nhà sàn một chái xinh xắn, cùng núi Dầu, núi Mục soi bóng xuống dòng sông Lường nước trong xanh bốn mùa. Làng Cham bắt đầu khai sơn phá thạch từ thời cụ Lê Hối, đến đời Lê Lợi, làng Cham đã thành một cộng đồng Mường - Việt đông đúc, do Lê Lợi đứng đầu. Với chức danh phụ đạo Khả Lam, Lê Lợi được chính quyền phong kiến đời Trần - Hồ giao cho cai quản cả vùng Kẻ Cham - Khả Lam rộng lớn thịnh vượng. Đất Kẻ Cham hay đạo Khả Lam chẳng những là nơi phát tích của vua Lê, mà còn là căn cứ địa của cuộc khởi nghĩa Lam Sơn, nơi khởi nghiệp, cung cấp nhân tài, vật lực cho buổi đàu cuộc khởi nghĩa Lam Sơn.
http://www.hids.hochiminhcity.gov.vn/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=3d60b76f-794e-44a2-8fe4-c8cefd75f42a&groupId=13025

A good read to see how the Tai speaking people in Tuyen Quang (not in Son La) got brought into the domain of Dai Viet



https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tana_Li/publication/248395427_The_Ming_factor_and_the_Emergence_of_the_Viet_in_the_15th_century/links/00b7d51df84438389a000000/The-Ming-factor-and-the-Emergence-of-the-Viet-in-the-15th-century.pdf

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2019, 02:09:28 PM »
I dont understand why you think that if Muong and Tai were assimilated then there was not Lam Son uprising which does not make any sense to me.

How about if there was no Le Loi, there was no Lam Son uprising which makes more sense to me.
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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2019, 04:05:45 AM »
How about if there was no Le Loi, there was no Lam Son uprising which makes more sense to me.
Look where do you think those 2 million barbarians from a Ming official's record have gone to? If Northern Vietnam had been a Kinh dominated society in the 15th century then why does modern Vietnamese have much more Vietic vocabulary in comparison to Sino Vietnamese in the 15th century?

Le Loi was the main leader but he got the support from leaders of non Kinh ethnics. Lam Son uprising should not be attributed only to Le Loi leadership.

Also correction to Nguyễn Chích, he was a descendant from Ly clan
http://www.ditichlamkinh.vn/m/vi/danh-tuong-nguyen-chich-F0A94BC4510E577C8C33E1F0F89DE746.html
The French messed up his background with their Muong ethnic classification
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyễn_Ch%C3%ADch

Also Le Loi was a leader of a Trai (trại chủ Lê Lợi)
http://www.ditichlamkinh.vn/m/vi/den-tho-vo-uy-080D59A54EA15CD292272AB4BAD1F647.html

Ethnic minorities leaders of Lang Chánh area near Le Loi's Trai
uy tín Đạo Cham (Lê Lợi) còn chưa đủ mạnh, tù trưởng các cấp, các sách như: Quỳ, Bái, Ấn, Hướng, Cá Lô, Ma, Lại (nay thuộc huyện Lang Chánh, Ngọc Lặc, Tỉnh Thanh Hoá), mỗi người chiếm một khoảnh làm giang sơn riêng.
http://www.ditichlamkinh.vn/m/vi/bia-le-sao---khai-quoc-cong-than-thoi-le-E3A3F755BF915650BCE8449BFF128C19.html
Tù trưởng là thủ lĩnh của một bộ lạc hoặc liên minh bộ lạc

Lang Chánh area

Lang Chánh is where the famous story of Le Lai (a Muong ethnic) saving his lord Le Loi came from. https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lang_Chánh

Le Loi's Trai - Lam Son area (Thọ Xuân + Ngọc Lặc + Thường Xuân)



https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lam_Sơn

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2019, 02:00:44 PM »
I dont understand why you think that if Muong and Tai were assimilated then there was not Lam Son uprising which does not make any sense to me.
You keep thinking assimilation only happens after a conquest. Assimilation happens through violent measure (conquest) or peaceful measure like language teaching sponsored by the state (the Chinese called it "pacification") and by frequent social contacts between commoners. Even in modern day you still see multilingual ethnic minorities leaving their highlands areas to live in more urbanised areas for better economic opportunity. DVSKTT was written to justify Le dynasty rule over the culturally heterogeneous Northern Vietnam in the 15 th century. Thats why you see tales from ethnic minorities got incorporated into DVSKTT.

The violent measure of assimilation is out of date in 21st century. The peaceful measure of assimilation through the use of economic wealth is still being by China in the 21st century.

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2019, 02:37:39 PM »
I already said it Le Loi is Kinh ethnic his 5 generation ancestors are Kinh. There are some historians claim Le Loi is Muong that is wrong and has no evidence whatsoever to prove it. Le Loi family was like an overlord of Thanh Hoa that was why he got strong support there.

There was many Muong enlisted under Le Loi rank that was no mean there was no Kinh enlisted. I dont discredit Muong contribution but saying without Muong without uprising is simply wrong. The core of Vietnamese culture and resistant to China empires, and to expansion, all of that came from Kinh ethnic the founder of early Vietnamese dynasties. Therefore without Muong Vietnam still exist. If Muong is great people they could had had their own Muong empire/dynasty already but subjugated and absorbed by the Kinh.

I see that you worked so hard to reserve some credits for Muong and I believe you have some form of connection could that be that you and them are M7 Austronesian?

Anyway I am no mean to discredit their contribution, it maybe the Vietnamese  language shift to Vietic due to Lam Son uprising where Muong has played big role. And again saying without Muong without Lam Son uprising is simply illogical. The Kinh survive and thrive on expense of other ethnics cant be under estimated.
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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2019, 04:06:10 PM »
Anyway I am no mean to discredit their contribution, it maybe the Vietnamese  language shift to Vietic due to Lam Son uprising where Muong has played big role. And again saying without Muong without Lam Son uprising is simply illogical. The Kinh survive and thrive on expense of other ethnics cant be under estimated.
Im just stating the fact that the demographics of Northern Vietnam was much more complex (ethnically, linguistically and culturally heterogeneous in the past) than it is now. It was not as culturally & politically Kinh dominated like you made it to be. The Kinh didn't assimilate nor politically dominate all the ethnics in Northern Vietnam before the 15th century. Kinh only dominated the urban areas of Red River Delta and coastal Thanh Hoa while ethnic minorities were basically everywhere in Northern Vietnam. Muong is actually a modern ethnic term but they are just the remnants of Vietic speakers that didn't assimilate into mainstream lowlands Kinh population.

From Ming shi lu in 1408
Quote
The Minister of Personnel Jian Yi and other ministers of the six ministries memorialized as follows: "The Xin-cheng Marquis Zhang Fu and others have pacified Jiao-zhi and have established a total of 472 military and civilian offices. There is a regional military commission, a provincial administration commission, a provincial surveillance commission, 10 guards, two battalions, 15 prefectures, 41 subprefectures and 208 counties, one maritime trade supervisorate, 100 police offices and 92 commercial tax offices. They have also built walls and moats in 12 cities and pacified 3,120,000-plus people. Further, they have obtained 2,087,500-plus man persons, 13,600,000 shi of grain, 235,900-plus elephants, horses and cattle, 8,677 (Alt: 8,672) ships and 2,539,852 items of military equipment." The Emperor said: "I am the lord of all people under Heaven. Why would I act in a warlike manner in order to obtain some land and people? My concern was that the rebellious bandits not go unpunished and that the suffering people not go unrelieved. Fu and the others were able to carry out my orders. They carried out the plans and fought bravely, capturing and eliminating the chief evil-doers and pacifying the region. Their achievements can be said to be extraordinarily outstanding." Fu stepped from the ranks, kowtowed in gratitude and said: "The success was planned by the Emperor and carried out by the majestic spirits of the nation. What abilities does this simple minister have!" The Emperor replied: "Your contribution to the state will be recorded in the histories and will long be known. Even the the achievements of Ma Fu-po of the Han Dynasty do not exceed yours." Thereupon, the Emperor gave orders to Yi and the others, saying: "You, together with the Ministry of Rites, will deliberate and determine the levels of promotions and rewards for the officers and soldiers. These are to be higher than those conferred for the pacification of Yun-nan."
http://www.epress.nus.edu.sg/msl/reign/yong-le/year-6-month-6-day-12
Those 3 millions people were culturally Kinh people while those 2 millions man people were separated groups of non sinicized people (Thai + Muong + other modern ethnic labels).

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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2019, 07:27:22 PM »
Im just stating the fact that the demographics of Northern Vietnam was much more complex (ethnically, linguistically and culturally heterogeneous in the past) than it is now. It was not as culturally & politically Kinh dominated like you made it to be. The Kinh didn't assimilate nor politically dominate all the ethnics in Northern Vietnam before the 15th century. Kinh only dominated the urban areas of Red River Delta and coastal Thanh Hoa while ethnic minorities were basically everywhere in Northern Vietnam. Muong is actually a modern ethnic term but they are just the remnants of Vietic speakers that didn't assimilate into mainstream lowlands Kinh population.


Vietnam has 54 ethnic minorities, most of the minorities are in Northern Vietnam. Large part of North was brought under Vietnam domain by conquests. Ain't that obvious North Vietnam was heterogeneous why the need to figure out?

How do you know they did not assimilate when a bunch of North Vietnamese has the looks of their sibling's Northern minority M7?
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Re: The separation between Viet and Muong
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2019, 04:09:11 AM »
How do you know they did not assimilate when a bunch of North Vietnamese has the looks of their sibling's Northern minority M7?
Then the better term for the Muong ethnic should be the "less assimilated" Northern Vietnamese.

 
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Vietcong Tradition: Live for the people, Die for the people by Vietcong 5 Dzung
[Yesterday at 10:18:20 PM]


Chinese Girl returns to her Root by LeLouch Rebellion
[Yesterday at 09:11:11 PM]


This song has amassed more than 2 billion streams in China by Yes
[Yesterday at 02:06:59 PM]


Healight: The Moonshot Not Yet Heard Round the World by Olive Juice
[Yesterday at 11:58:05 AM]


Pollutant fees should be applied for wastewater treatment by convoy
[Yesterday at 10:05:26 AM]


Non gymmer comrade has balls to call this curvy girl fat by Guess
[Yesterday at 07:02:29 AM]


Vietnam highway boom by
[Yesterday at 06:52:43 AM]


Localities face shortage of facilities to repair water vessels by convoy
[Yesterday at 04:02:53 AM]


This is my fav vietnmese band now by Guess
[October 21, 2020, 10:20:07 PM]


Comrades hacked Wikipedia, changed Vietnam GDP from $240 Billion to $340 Billion by Vietcong 5 Dzung
[October 21, 2020, 09:55:08 PM]


Nutmeg marble makes sense for once by Guess
[October 21, 2020, 08:59:18 PM]


this girl just irks me by Guess
[October 21, 2020, 08:54:47 PM]


why do vietnamese women like to dye their eyebrows? by Guess
[October 21, 2020, 08:46:59 PM]


Vietrealm's new anthem: Today is Saturday I want to go to a bar by Guess
[October 21, 2020, 07:56:54 PM]


Gourmet spring rolls by Guess
[October 21, 2020, 06:38:33 PM]

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