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Author Topic: Need help in deciphering folk song  (Read 400 times)

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Offline gaden

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Need help in deciphering folk song
« on: June 29, 2019, 04:47:58 PM »
Folk songs are generally from the common populace.  So, they wouldn't necessarily be derived from the privileged class.  The privileged class are the ones who bring in external sources and influences to create new culture.  The common people would retain the indigenous cultures because they do not come into contact with outsiders..

That brings to me thought that folk songs are from the common people and it should not have outside influences.  For Vietnamese folk songs this means that there should not be any Sino-Vietnamese vocabulary in the lyrics.

I'm not sure how old this song is but could anyone tell me if there are any Sino-Vietnamese words in the song?

Hoa Thơm Bướm Lượn


Ơi hoa tôi là này đóa hoa thơm
Ố tình là con bướm lượn
Ố tình là con bướm dạo ối a...
Bớ cái duyên có ã ru hời
Tôi ơ hỡi bớ cái duyên có ã ru hời
Bướm lượn là bướm ôi a nó bay
Bướm dạo là bướm ôi a nó bay.

Nước xanh tôi là này nước trong xanh
Ố tình là con cá lặn
Ố tình là con cá lội ối a...
Bớ cái duyên có a ru hời

Tôi ơ hỡi bớ cái duyên có a ru hời
Cá lặn là cá ơi à nó bơi
Cá lội là cá ơi à nó bơi.

Ấy yêu ta là nay ơ yêu nhau
Chiếc cầu tre anh đợi
Mỗi phiên chợ lại thấy em vội bước qua
Soi bóng em dưới nước sông đào
Con cá lặn con cá bơi dưới nước sông đào
Ước gì mình cùng bước ơi à với nhau
Miếng trầu mặn mà sớm tối ta có nhau

Offline Daisy

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Re: Need help in deciphering folk song
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2019, 05:05:36 PM »
Don't think too hard, dumb Vietnamese logic like that, folk songs must not have any Sino Viet vocabulary in it, will create further unjustified assumptions, going on forever without end.

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Re: Need help in deciphering folk song
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2019, 12:53:26 AM »
Chinese is not a language but a description of languages.  Vietnamese borrow heavily from many languages spoken in China due to trade contact.  Usually, concepts with esoteric meaning and nonnormative use in vernacular speech have Chinese origin.  Even Vietnamese scholars who studied all the Chinese languages have a hard time pinpointing the etymology of less obvious Chinese loan words.  This is due to both verbal and written shift in the communication of the borrowed word, which also evolve to mean something else entirely over time after it arrived in Vietnam.  There are also quite a lot of loan words from the Khmer Empire that Vietnamese people use without knowing.  I used to think that Muong people are less sinicized compared to Vietnamese but their songs have a lot of Chinese loan words which they picked up interacting with Vietnamese.  To the Vietnamese ear, some Muong words sound oddly familiar actually have different meanings.




Offline Daisy

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Re: Need help in deciphering folk song
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2019, 01:09:30 AM »
It's okay, after Vietnam gets 5G from Huawei all the communications breakdown will cease and even Muong will understand the Kinh.

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Re: Need help in deciphering folk song
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2019, 01:15:24 AM »
you are obviously too dumb to read the news.  Vietnam develops its own 5G without using Huawei equipments and will roll out this service next year in major cities.  The reason they do this is that they already export indigenous smartphones to Myanmar, Spain and the Czech Republic.  They need to compete directly with Chinese firms to make money.  China did the same against Japanese technologies a decade ago.


https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/3008714/vietnam-races-launch-5g-network-chinese-tech-giant-huawei-notably

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/5G-networks/Vietnam-s-top-telecom-to-adopt-self-developed-5G-tech


It's okay, after Vietnam gets 5G from Huawei all the communications breakdown will cease and even Muong will understand the Kinh.

Offline Daisy

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Re: Need help in deciphering folk song
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2019, 01:18:49 AM »
I am not sure you are hearing your own words anymore.  I thought you kept insisting that Vietnamese don't get along great was due to the fact of their misinterpretations between people like Kinh and Muong.

Offline gaden

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Re: Need help in deciphering folk song
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2019, 04:55:09 PM »
Vietnamese vocabulary has 50-60% sino Vietnamese words.  The chance of some literary work or normal speech should include at least one word of Sino-Vietnamese in it.  So if a folk song has zero Sino-Vietnamese words what does that mean?

My guess is that the song is very old before Chinese intervention has any impact in Vietnamese culture.  Also from the Video, any foreign elements that you see?

Please, I expect PHD graduate level responses.  Do not say airhead responses like I need to dry my hair and shwit like that.

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Re: Need help in deciphering folk song
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2019, 05:08:14 AM »
How do you know that our folk songs are "old"? How old is old? Han-Viet vocabulary was introduced more aggressively during Tang era rather than after independence.  I advise you find folk songs and Vietnamese poetry written in the same era and study for changes in Sinitic influence over time.  All I can say is that cultural appropriation is key to societal advancement and lack of foreign influence is not exactly a good thing.  I would rather travel around Vietnam in hyperloops than on Vietcong built rails listening to a bunch of Vietnamese peasants sing about flowers and butterflies.


Vietnamese vocabulary has 50-60% sino Vietnamese words.  The chance of some literary work or normal speech should include at least one word of Sino-Vietnamese in it.  So if a folk song has zero Sino-Vietnamese words what does that mean?

My guess is that the song is very old before Chinese intervention has any impact in Vietnamese culture.  Also from the Video, any foreign elements that you see?

Please, I expect PHD graduate level responses.  Do not say airhead responses like I need to dry my hair and shwit like that.

Offline gaden

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Re: Need help in deciphering folk song
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2019, 06:25:07 PM »
How do you know that our folk songs are "old"? How old is old? Han-Viet vocabulary was introduced more aggressively during Tang era rather than after independence.  I advise you find folk songs and Vietnamese poetry written in the same era and study for changes in Sinitic influence over time.  All I can say is that cultural appropriation is key to societal advancement and lack of foreign influence is not exactly a good thing.  I would rather travel around Vietnam in hyperloops than on Vietcong built rails listening to a bunch of Vietnamese peasants sing about flowers and butterflies.


Well...how do you explain no Sino terms in the vocabulary?

Birds and butterflies gives me inspiration and confidence to design lasers and shwit because it is localized achievements.  Foreign influences like Kpop could only mean tearing my ears out. 

Well...this Hat Xoan is purported to be 2000 years old.


 
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