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Offline Winner

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Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« on: January 31, 2020, 06:56:16 PM »
Why not Tang, Ming, Song, Qin, Jin? Why did they pick Han period?

I have the assumption that the Chinese nationalists during the communist revolution took the idea from the Nguyen Dynasty. Since Chinese lost their culture to the Qing after 300 years rule, they looking to restore their culture and to drive out the Qing so they look for a source but why not restore Ming or, the Song? Because they don't have much sources of Song or Ming? This led to me thinking one of the nationalists was the Ming loyalist descendants have been living in Vietnam under the Nguyen Dynasty. So they just took from what the Nguyen referred themselves, or the Chinese nationalist was half mixed Hoa-Viet.

At the time of Qing there was a very blur border between Vietnam and China, people often confused themselves.

Similar during the period ousting the Mongol out of China one of the Chinese claimed to relate to the Vietnamese Tran Dynasty to use as the base to fight the Mongol.

Or was it the intention of the Chinese nationalists to include Vietnam as part of China after driven out the Qing therefore if Vietnam was part of China, they could easily claim well, they came from the Nguyen that would make China became a continuous inheritance of the Nguyen from Han to Nguyen? In the history of Vietnam and China one king claim to be a descendant of another dynasty very commons.

Obviously, modern Chinese and Vietnamese would not want any relationship with each other. So why do they liked to take thing from each other? Was it the ancient Chinese and Vietnamese concept sharing culture and are the same people?

A lot of western source claims Vietnam looked up from Chinese but the modern attitude of Vietnamese to Chinese is obviously the opposite thus it does not make any sense to me.
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Offline Winner

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2020, 08:54:52 PM »
I read a lot of Vietnamese historical texts and I notice they did not distinguish themselves with Chinese or think Chinese as another identity. Same for the Chinese they did not distinguish Viet as a separate identity instead they sought to bring or reincorporate Vietnam. Song, Ming explicitly claimed Vietnam as part of China and tried to incorporate and failed

The Chinese Dynasties considered Vietnam as a separate identity were the Yuan and Qing. However the Yuan and Qing were perceived by Chinese nationalists as invaders and not part of Chinese identity.

Meaning, the Vietnamese were the continuous state that practice the same culture uninterrupted for thousands of years meanwhile the Chinese twice had their culture practice interrupted by the invastion of Manchu and Mongol. 

Then, does the Han Nhan (people) term come from Han dynasty?The historical context after the Han collapsed none Chinese state referred themselves as Han. They fought under banner Viet/Yue as the Cantonese today still referred themselves as Yue and that included the little state called Nam Han (Southern Han) the king referred themselves as to Yue/Viet. This led to the thought, the Han of the Han period did not refer themselves as Han.

Therefore, the Han people is the modern term that came from the Nguyen who first called themselves as Han Nhan. The historian during the Nguyen Dynasty still regard Nam Viet as Viet state, they must think Nam Han was also Viet state since the Viet was part of it and Nam Han was comprised of the land of Nam Viet. They called themselves the Han people and name the country Dai Nam.

Western source claimed that Gia Long named the country  Nam Viet but the Qing court changed it to Viet Nam. However, Ming Mang named the country Dai Nam that also means Ming Mang did not give a single thought Vietnamese was Viet/Yue people, the Vietnamese under Ming Mang referred themselves as Han to differentiate themselves with Chinese Qing. This also means the Chinese under Qing did not refer themselves as Han only the Viet did. Now the Chinese refer themselves as Han while the Viet changed to call themselves Viet/Kinh. It is clearly the Vietnamese tried to separate their identity here.

Both Kinh and Viet are modern terms to describe the Vietnamese and who chose these terms? No where in the Vietnamese historical the ancient people referred themselves as Kinh nor Viet (except for the short period of Nan Yue) but why the early independent Viet dynasties Ngo, Dinh, Le, Ly none of them regard themselves as Viet though historian of that time still think Nan Yue was Viet kingdom, and saw the Chinese as the same people as them and not a separate identity. Clearly, the ancient Viet did not consider themselves as Viet/Yue and Viet is the modern term.

==========

Concluded, the Vietnamese culture does not borrow from China as many western source claimed. It has been a continuous uninterrupted culture for thousands of years. Chinese culture is a mixed bag of cultures here.
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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2020, 09:53:07 PM »
Here is how it went:

Han Chinese: hey you Vietnamese are Han Chinese too. 
Vietnamese: no thanks, we rather be Mexican before accepting your Han honorific
Han Chinese: fine, we call you Yue Barbarian from now on
Vietnamese: hold my banh xeo.

Offline CoconutXO

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2020, 12:29:38 PM »
Han is an alternative name for Huaxia or inhabitants of the Yellow River.

Quote
Huaxia refers to a confederation of tribes—living along the Yellow  River—who were the ancestors of what later became the Han ethnic group in  China. ... Initially, Huaxia defined mainly a civilized society that was  distinct and stood in contrast to what was perceived as the barbaric  peoples around them. The forefathers of the Han people living in the Central Plains referred  to themselves by this term. Earlier on they called themselves Hua (华),  Zhuhua (诸华), Xia (夏) or Zhuxia (诸夏). The term Huaxia (华夏) embodies the  common identity of the way of life, language, and culture of the people  living in the Central Plains, mainly the Han people, and the inheritance  of such identity. The Huaxia people evolved into a fairly stable ethnic  group in the Qin Dynasty, which established a unified country of many  ethnic groups with Huaxia being the principal group. In the Han Dynasty,  the term Han became an alternative name of Huaxia. Later, the term Huaxia  was extended to refer to China or the Han people.

The Shang society started the first recorded civilization there around 1760 BC.

Quote
The very earliest period in traditional Chinese history is called the Mythical Period, when—according to legend—the Xia dynasty ruled China. The Shang dynasty, the first historically confirmed dynasty, supposedly began when the Shang overthrew the Xia sometime around 1760 BCE. 



The river actually looks yellow due to sedimentation.


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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2020, 09:51:15 AM »
Many Han Chinese do not know about Han history though.  They still claim Manchus are Hans.

Offline Winner

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2020, 07:45:08 PM »
Han is an alternative name for Huaxia or inhabitants of the Yellow River.

The Shang society started the first recorded civilization there around 1760 BC.



The river actually looks yellow due to sedimentation.



This is properly made up of those Chinese nationalists who tried to create an identity similar to the case of Vietnamese created 18 Hung King.

How can Huaxia transform into Han?  Can Han transform to Viet?  Don't make a god damn sense to me.

Thru out generations of Chinese dynasties; Qin, Tang, Song, Ming...etc  none referred themselves as Han ; then suddenly Han is used and interpreted as Huaxia.

If the Huaxia and Han were that much important then the Tang would call themselves Hua or Han or after the collapse of Han, various states did not fight for Han identity or the Ming after ousted Mongol, they did not fight as Han identity in fact one of the leaders during the war with Mongol claimed to relate to Tran Dynasty thus said the Han was meaningless to them.

The King of Southern Han claimed he was Yue. So again, the Han is meaningless.

The Han people or (Han Nhan) only appeared during the communist revolution try to establish Chinese identity.

The Cantonese contributed a lot to the war ousting the Manchu, the leader was Sun Yet Sen. The Cantonese referred themselves as Yue and not Han. Again if the Han is importantly understood then it must be consistently used by Chinese but it isn ot the case.

The term Han Nhan/Han people used by Ming Mang to describe his people. I am sure he is not mistaken himself and his people as Chinese. Since he used the term Han Nhan to differentia with Chinese under Qing.

The Ha culture Ming Mang used to describe the Vietnamese culture is a form of culture not the same as Han people.  Ha translated to Chinese as Xia.

I am sure the communist Chinese learned a thing or two from the Nguyen Dynasty and used it to establish Chinese identity against Manchu Qing.

Some people think Chinese never copy from Vietnam, think again. They copy many things around the world, Vietnam is no exception.

https://thanhnien.vn/van-hoa/bao-trung-quoc-goi-non-la-ao-dai-viet-nam-la-phong-cach-trung-quoc-1150932.html
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Offline CoconutXO

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2020, 11:52:30 AM »
South of the Yangtze river was the traditional home of Baiyue tribes, so southern Han were technically Yue people. Even today, it's hard to tell a southern Chinese from a northern Vietnamese.







Northern China is a totally different geographical area. It's the land of the Manchus, Mongols, Xianbei, and Jurchens, and together they ruled over China for much of its history.





Yellow river Chinese are considered southerners with very different lifestyles and customs.

Jews of Asia, merchants, expert sea mariners, etc.   

The upturned eaves on roof corners depict boats riding on sea waves.











The Tang empire was of Xianbei origin.

Quote
The Li family belonged to the northwest military aristocracy prevalent during the Sui dynasty and claimed to be paternally descended from the Daoist founder, Laozi (whose personal name was Li Dan or Li Er) the Han dynasty General Li Guang and Western Liang ruler Li Gao. This family was known as the Longxi Li lineage (Li lineage [zh]; 隴西李氏), which includes the Tang poet Li Bai. The Tang Emperors also had Xianbei maternal ancestry, from Emperor Gaozu of Tang's Xianbei mother, Duchess Dugu. 

Offline Winner

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2020, 04:09:05 PM »
South of the Yangtze river was the traditional home of Baiyue tribes, so southern Han were technically Yue people. Even today, it's hard to tell a southern Chinese from a northern Vietnamese.


Northern China is a totally different geographical area. It's the land of the Manchus, Mongols, Xianbei, and Jurchens, and together they ruled over China for much of its history.


The Tang empire was of Xianbei origin.

It is freaking 2020 the beginning of 4th industrial, the IoT, AI and you still believe the Yue thing? You need to update your knowledge.

The mtDNA pointed out Southern China and Northern Vietnam dominate by Tai R9F. Of course, they look alike. However, it is not the same to be said for the whole of Vietnam.

The Yue? I know Cantonese claimed to be Yue. I am for sure not ancient Vietnamese called themselves Yue. Don't know for sure about Ly, Tran, Le but Nguyen called themselves Han Nhan. The biggest ethnic of Vietnam called themselves Kinh. Only Cantonese refer to themselves as Yue.

Name of a country doesn't always align with the ethnic name. China dominant ethnic refer themselves as Han. Ming Mang named the country Dai Nam and referred people as Han Nhan. The Ho dynasty named the country Dai Ngu, don't know the people but definitely not Viet nor Kinh ...etc. see the inconsistency here? I am an AI architect, a small inconsistent/bug I can easily spot.

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Offline 1r0n_m4n_xl

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2020, 10:42:20 AM »
great topic guys
data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxMTEhUTExMVFhUXGBoaFxcYGBUYGhsdGhcYFxgXG

Offline CoconutXO

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2020, 08:07:39 PM »
The Viet identity has been around for a while.

Quote
Southern Han (Chinese: 南漢; pinyin: Nán Hàn; 917–971), originally Great Yue (大越) was one of the ten kingdoms that existed during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period. At the same time Vietnam named as An Nam. But late changed to Great Yue 大越 ( for the periods from 1054 to 1400 and 1428 to 1804 ).

The name Great Yue came to end when the Nguyen dynasty took power. The country's name was officially changed in 1804 the name Nam Viet or Nam Yue was picked and asked for recognition from the Qing dynasty but the Qing dynasty reversed the name. This time to "Viet Nam" (越南) or Yue Nam in Chinese.

Originally when the first Nguyen emperor of Vietnam requested the Chinese ruler to endorse a new name for Vietnam, the first name was 南越 (Nanyue). The Chinese however found that the name was identical to the name of the Nanyue kingdom, a former country that had territory in both southern China and northern Vietnam. To avoid confusion and to dispel any possible future Vietnamese claim to former Nanyue lands (In Guangdong and Guangxi in China), the Chinese reversed the two syllables and created 越南 (Yuenan), the new name for Vietnam and the name for Vietnam in modern Chinese language.

https://www.quora.com/Does-Vietnam-Yuenan-mean-Southern-Yue-or-South-of-the-Yue


Offline gaden

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2020, 08:58:43 PM »
You guys should call yourself Nguyen people.  What the hell is Vitnamese?  Duck people or something?

Offline Winner

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2020, 05:27:51 PM »
The Viet identity has been around for a while.


That Viet identity you speak of does not equal to modern Vietnamese.

Ethnic composed more than 80% of modern Vietnamese called themselves Kinh, not Viet. The Cantonese ethnic Chinese referred to themselves as Viet/Yue

Look like you failed to read what I wrote in previous posts. Not only you failed to comprehend my posts, you also took someone's post from quora and use it as fact?

You think the people posting on Quora have better knowledge than I or you use from someone's qoura post because it suits your false knowledge?

I can easily point out the wrong things in that post, just too many.

Let me correct a few points in the quote you got from Quora.

Vietnam used to be a part of Southern Han. Ngo Quyen a high ranking official of Southern Han rebelled successfully split from Southern Han. That period under Ngo Quyen ruled called Ngo Dynasty. Nowhere in the history text that I can find Ngo Quyen name country Dai Viet.

Dai Viet appeared in later Ly and during Tran, after the Tran was dethroned the Ho Dynasty named the country Dai Ngu

The An Nam was the name of Vietnam when it was part of Tang empire.

Giao Chi was the name of Vietnam when it was part of Han empire.

Gia Long named the country Vietnam but the people referred to as Han Nhan, not Viet.

Do you see the inconsistency here?




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Offline CoconutXO

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2020, 08:59:39 PM »
The word "Viet" isn't an ethnic designation. It's a nationality.

VN has 54 ethnics, but only 1 nationality.

Same with America.



The cultural binder for VN would be the Dong Son civilization of the Red river delta as that's where it all started.

Dong Son drum



Tran era's shield, notice the same starburst emblem in the middle.





Ancient Dongsonian with spiral chest tattoos and afro hair.








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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2020, 08:37:23 AM »
Historically the idea of nationhood comes out of hatred.  Vietnamese would not be Vietnamese without the Chinese reminding us how sucky it is to be humiliated.  Thaank you Chinese!

Lol

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2020, 11:15:51 AM »
Vietnamese are a blanket out outliers.

The Original Vietnamese were Peoples who cut their hair short, sport tatooes, mountain dwellers,  jungle dwellers, and seafarers. From the Red Delta to Fujian. They spoke many languages, but they were all Viets. These were the home of southern barbarians. The Han consideres them all Viets. Viets is like the racist  term N1ggers. It was the Chinese who gave them this identity viet/ Yeuh. .  As the Chinese onslaught continues into the southern land, people migrated southern into the Red River Delta to join in with the Lac and Au peoples. Those who stayed got r8ped by Han soldiers, convicts, and political exiles which was by the edict of Huangdi, a Chinese Emperor. Those r8ped babies are modern day Catonese.

Later the Hmong people joined in. Hmong means free people. They migrated southward because they were scared to be r8pef by t1ny Chinese c0cks. After their Kingdom fall, the Chinese were  lusting after their beautiful tribal women. King Pang pleased with the Chinese to let his people go,  to grant them passages across the mountain. In return he agreed to give Hmong land to the Chinese. That's why Northern Vietnam mountains and hills  have shwit load of Hmong.

Later on a bunch of Chinese people migrated to a Vietnam because they didn't want to be r8ped by the Mongol and Manchu/ Jurchen.

China is a love fest and a place of genetic diversity due to its r8ped culture. When I think of China l, I think of toxic r8pe culture. -shrug

Lol

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2020, 11:26:39 AM »
Modern Chinese call themselves Han because their history were all burned and destroyed by Mao. Mao is revered because he get rid off all differences which divided China. Ancient relic and artifacts, records, were all destroyed.

Imagine being a Catonese and a Manchu/Jurchen says to you " haha, I Manchu,I superior, your people were my ancestors slaves. Ha ha." Before the culture revolution, Chinese were divided and all hated each others. It was like a dysfunctional family, were your uncle and dad were incestuous and r8pist.

After the culture revolution, where Mao killed all those who acted up, and burned all historical records. The Chinese were unified as one and they're all Han. But in truth, they all r8ped babies and confused people.

By the Edict of Mao, you're all Han. Now each and everyone of you, go kill me 2 (two) birds. That's explains why China has no birds, lots of locust, and over 90% Han.

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Re: Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2020, 12:19:32 PM »
Yes, Chinese victimhood was real and gave them a Han identity. Whereas Vietnamese victimhood was mostly fabricated by early 20th century opium addicted intellectuals in Hanoi.

 
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